Tower not answering - what actually happened here?

[DXB]

So I was flying back to my home field KPNE ( a large moderately busy class D under the Philadelphia Bravo) early this evening VFR without talking to anyone.  Temps are dropping,  and there is light precip and moderate turbulence.  I am flying low to stay out of icing temps and am a little bit anxious to get home.  I call tower from the southeast 12 miles out - no response.  I then make repeated calls from both radios - nothing.  Before reaching the class D boundary, I turn away and head for the nearest nontowered field ( KVAY) feeling very flustered.  When asking for a radio check on CTAF, I get an immediate "loud and clear" and then enter the pattern and land. On the ground, I'm wondering if I missed the notam saying tower is closed because of low traffic volume during the quarantine, or the frequency changed, but that doesnt appear to be the case.  I call the tower and tell the controller what happened. She says there is no issue  with the frequency. I ask when was the last time she talked to anyone on tower frequency - she says two hours ago.  I ask her again to check if the frequency is working.  She comes back a few moments later and says something like "oh, sorry - it wasn't working, it should be ok now."  I take off in worsening visibility and rain for the 5 minute hop and land uneventfully.  I've no clue what it's like to work on the ATC side, but can anyone conjecture what actually happened here? Did someone fall asleep on the job after accidently flipping the wrong switch?  I wonder how many other calls she missed.  Should I have done something differently on my end under these circumstances?  If I'd been on an instrument approach I could have leaned on the approach controller for help.  I hesitated to call approach in the air here because I wasn't even on flight following , and I was wondering if the messup was actually on my end. 

[Garryowen]

If it’s radio silence and you don’t get a reply, drive on. 

I’ve had it happen a few times over the years approaching the field VFR. After trying on both radios I knew it was not on my end. I self announced on tower freq as if the tower was closed and entered the pattern and landed normally.  All while looking for light gun signals of course.

The surprise landing usually gets their attention up in the tower. 

IFR - I’ll swap back over to approach and they usually straighten it out. 

It sounds like it worked out for you in the end. Sorry you had to deal with the weather. 

[EricJ]

If your phone works you can call them from the air, if you have either a BT headset or BT audio panel.

Were there any notifications on ATIS?

You can also check with the appropriate radar controller both as a radio check and to forward a message.

For a while recently Scottsdale tower was shutting down periodically during the day because they were short-staffed and their break requirements meant that they left the tower unattended for about twenty minutes at a time periodically throughout the day.   I don't know whether they were putting notes to that effect on ATIS, but people were just going in and out per usual CTAF.

 

[Culver LFA]

6 minutes ago, EricJ said:

If your phone works you can call them from the air, if you have either a BT headset or BT audio panel

My understanding is that the FAA is ok with that practice but the FCC has a problem with it. That doesn't stop me from calling ATIS at my destination on my cellphone when I can't pick it up on my NAV2 radio!

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, Culver LFA said:

My understanding is that the FAA is ok with that practice but the FCC has a problem with it. That doesn't stop me from calling ATIS at my destination on my cellphone when I can't pick it up on my NAV2 radio!

Originally they cared because everybody was paranoid about interference with avionics, but that turned out to be essentially a non-issue.  Then they cared because of the interference across multiple cell sites/carriers due to the elevation, but that's not really an issue any more, either.   Now the main concern seems to be privacy/civility issues with the travelling public aboard airliners.    So on a GA airplane there's not really anybody left to care about it, and if you're using for a safety purpose I doubt anybody will fault you for it.   The vast majority of folks probably forget to turn them off when flying, so actually making a call isn't really a big change.

I can text somewhat reliably from the air, but voice calls are a crapshoot.

[gsxrpilot]

8 hours ago, Culver LFA said:

My understanding is that the FAA is ok with that practice but the FCC has a problem with it. That doesn't stop me from calling ATIS at my destination on my cellphone when I can't pick it up on my NAV2 radio!

FCC? Who's that?  Do they do ramp checks? Has anyone had the FCC call them over the radio and give them a number to call? The FCC can say what they want about cell phone use. The problems they are worried about have been thoroughly debunked. So if I need to use my phone to call ATC while in the air, I wouldn't hesitate 2 seconds. Or even to call my wife to let her know I'm about to land and please come pick me up.

[Vno]

Interesting situation. The AIM talks about lost comms but it basically is only for the aircraft losing communication capability. Not the ATC facility. I think you did exactly what the AIM, FAR and common sense says to do. Mistakes happen on their side also. Fortunately no one got hurt or in trouble. I would not be hesitant to call Approach or another ATC facility to help out or check. Workload permitting that is part of what they do for VFR traffic. Right now it isn't so busy anyway. You also could have made a call on 121.5 to PNE as they should be monitoring it. Or last case maybe PNE ground though it could be crowded. If it was a volume or transmitter issue the other side might be working.

Brian

[midlifeflyer]

4 minutes ago, Vno said:

Interesting situation. The AIM talks about lost comms but it basically is only for the aircraft losing communication capability. Not the ATC facility. I think you did exactly what the AIM, FAR and common sense says to do. Mistakes happen on their side also. Fortunately no one got hurt or in trouble. I would not be hesitant to call Approach or another ATC facility to help out or check. Workload permitting that is part of what they do for VFR traffic. Right now it isn't so busy anyway. You also could have made a call on 121.5 to PNE as they should be monitoring it. Or last case maybe PNE ground though it could be crowded. If it was a volume or transmitter issue the other side might be working.

Brian

There's a decent argument to be made that, practically speaking,  it is the opposite - that the FAR 91.185 lost comm procedures are for ATC losing communication capability, not aircraft. 

Aircraft lost comm with today's reliability, is likely to be an emergency entailing the loss of both comm and nav capability or an electrical issue which makes one need to get on the ground ASAP.  Add to all that the likelihood that you will not encounter any VFR conditions on any flight of an appreciable length, and you have an event which is highly unlikely to occur and which, if it does, you will want to get on the ground expeditiously. Even without that, with even a primary radar,  ATC, once aware of lost comm, is going to protect the entire path for you, wherever you might head,  so you might as well get on the ground as soon as practical anyway and let the system reopen.

Compare that with an ATC comm failure in which every airplane in the system, particularly in high traffic density areas, needs to do something uniformly predictable in order to avoid chaos or worse.

[Shadrach]

You could request the recording during that time period. It reads like she was complacent. What if you’d been in real need of services or had an emergency. Everyone makes mistakes. This one appears on the surface to be due to a lack of attention to detail. Not a good trait in a tower controller.

[Shadrach]

19 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

There's a decent argument to be made that, practically speaking,  it is the opposite - that the FAR 91.185 lost comm procedures are for ATC losing communication capability, not aircraft. 

Aircraft lost comm with today's reliability, is likely to be an emergency entailing the loss of both comm and nav capability or an electrical issue which makes one need to get on the ground ASAP.  Add to all that the likelihood that you will not encounter any VFR conditions on any flight of an appreciable length, and you have an event which is highly unlikely to occur and which, if it does, you will want to get on the ground expeditiously. Even without that, with even a primary radar,  ATC, once aware of lost comm, is going to protect the entire path for you, wherever you might head,  so you might as well get on the ground as soon as practical anyway and let the system reopen.

Compare that with an ATC comm failure in which every airplane in the system, particularly in high traffic density areas, needs to do something uniformly predictable in order to avoid chaos or worse.

I had an event just like this coming back from Manchester NH many years ago. Transponder was the first to go. By the time I noticed the discharge the comms were garbled. I had been talking to NY center. They could not understand me but I heard them tell me they lost my transponder. It was dusk with scattered deck. I immediately descended NORDO through the class Charlie into Allentown/Queen City. Called center on the ground and all was good. 
 

What I question was the legality of my return. It was Friday evening so no services. FBO offered an over night battery charge. The next day I called tower at my destination and told them when I would be arriving and that I may be NORDO when I got there. They thanked me for the heads up. I used the Comms on departure and then shut everything down until 10 miles out from destination.  Plenty of juice for Comms. No issues. 

[PT20J]

Stuff happens. I once had the tower switch runways ay KMRY and forget to switch the localizer. Trying to intercept the ILS when IMC with unexpected reverse sensing is an interesting experience, but I figured it out pretty quickly (and this was before moving maps and gps) and the local controller apologized profusely. 

Unless something really puts me in actual danger, I always cut the controllers a lot if slack. In my experience, they don’t screw up nearly as much as I do and I’m just happy no one is keeping score.

Skip

[kmyfm20s]

Send in a NASA report

[KB4]

First, great decision making.  Some would have just self announced and landed.  Probably short staffed.  Do not hesitate to call Approach.  "App Mooney XYZ I can't raise the Tower at N.E. Philly, is the tower closed?  Reverts to non-towered.  Controllers in the North East are the best around and can handle high volumes, are pilots themselves, more than willing to help and forgive mistakes.  My clearance was "hold for release call back when ur #1" After a 15 minute Congo Line, I was number 1, lined up and off I went.  Never called for my release.  Checked in, and heard "you departed without your release"  Ohh Fudge.  Admitted my mistake, apologized, and all was forgiven. 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

 

What I question was the legality of my return. It was Friday evening so no services. FBO offered an over night battery charge. The next day I called tower at my destination and told them when I would be arriving and that I may be NORDO when I got there. They thanked me for the heads up. I used the Comms on departure and then shut everything down until 10 miles out from destination.  Plenty of juice for Comms. No issues. 

Why do you question the legality of your return?

[jaylw314]

12 hours ago, DXB said:

 If I'd been on an instrument approach I could have leaned on the approach controller for help.  I hesitated to call approach in the air here because I wasn't even on flight following , and I was wondering if the messup was actually on my end. 

I've had this happen a couple times at class D airports, actually.  Both times I was just putzing around VFR, and after a couple minutes of silence and head-scratching, I called Center to ask them if they could get tower on the horn.  The first time Center said the tower confirmed they were talking to other aircraft and to recheck my frequency (I had dialed in the wrong one), and the second time Center was able to get a report on the situation from tower over the phone, they said a circuit breaker had tripped and their comms would be down for about 10 minutes.  They let me know when the tower was up and running again.

Then again, I fly in an area where there is only one major class C airport, so ARTCC and TRACON are pretty easy to call up, but even in the Socal area they were always pretty helpful and friendly.

[Rick Junkin]

13 hours ago, DXB said:

I call tower from the southeast 12 miles out - no response.  I then make repeated calls from both radios - nothing.  Before reaching the class D boundary, I turn away and head for the nearest nontowered field ( KVAY) feeling very flustered.  When asking for a radio check on CTAF, I get an immediate "loud and clear" and then enter the pattern and land. On the ground,

This is a really non-standard approach to this problem but it's worked for me in the past: try a call on ground frequency.

I set ground into my #2 radio as part of my approach radio setup so I can leave the approach freq in standby on my #1 for the missed and just punch the comm panel as I clear the runway for ground. I was having a similar issue to yours one day and pushed over to ground to advise of the problem and immediately got an apology and a call on tower freq. UNICOM could work as well if you have it set up, although less likely that the tower would be monitoring.

Just another way to skin the cat.

Cheers,
Rick

[midlifeflyer]

8 minutes ago, Junkman said:

This is a really non-standard approach to this problem but it's worked for me in the past: try a call on ground frequency.

I don't think that's nonstandard. Try another frequency is one of the most sensible things I can think of.

[Rick Junkin]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

I don't think that's nonstandard. Try another frequency is one of the most sensible things I can think of.

Good point 

[carusoam]

Sorta summary...
 

Often...

1) Ground and tower are the same person...  

2) It may be possible... the one person didn’t flip frequencies properly...

3) Flight training in the 90s...said try any frequency they have, and yell through the P-tube if you think it will help...

4) Talking to approach can check your radio, and give insight to tower status...

5) 121.5 is probably better than the P-tube...

6) cell phone is better than the p-tube too... FCC rules can’t keep up...

7) Strange times, stranger occurrences, stay extra diligent...

Nice work, Dev!

Thanks for sharing the details...

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

FCC? Who's that?  Do they do ramp checks? Has anyone had the FCC call them over the radio and give them a number to call? The FCC can say what they want about cell phone use. The problems they are worried about have been thoroughly debunked. So if I need to use my phone to call ATC while in the air, I wouldn't hesitate 2 seconds. Or even to call my wife to let her know I'm about to land and please come pick me up.

Be careful some guy with a Prius with a lot of weird antennas will be at your door step with that kind of attitude;)

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Why do you question the legality of your return?

Someone told me afterwards that operating the plane with a known, failed charging system would have required a ferry permit to be legal.  They also said that the electric T&B should have been placarded INOP.  

Edited April 19, 2020 by Shadrach

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Someone told me afterwards that operating the plane with a known  failed charging system would  required a ferry permit to be legal.  They also said that electric T&B should have been placarded INOP.  

Good point.

[Frank B.]

19 hours ago, Culver LFA said:

My understanding is that the FAA is ok with that practice but the FCC has a problem with it. That doesn't stop me from calling ATIS at my destination on my cellphone when I can't pick it up on my NAV2 radio!

I see people referencing using their cell phone in flight. I can very rarely get a call or a text to go through from the air. I have one cell phone on AT&T and one on Verizon. On the rare occasion that I can get a call or text to go through I am typically at 1000 AGL or less. Are others able to use their cell phones in flight?

Thanks, Frank

[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, Frank B. said:

I see people referencing using their cell phone in flight. I can very rarely get a call or a text to go through from the air. I have one cell phone on AT&T and one on Verizon. On the rare occasion that I can get a call or text to go through I am typically at 1000 AGL or less. Are others able to use their cell phones in flight?

Thanks, Frank

I took off from a rural airport in Western MD while on a call with my wife.  Call dropped climbing through 6K.  It just depends on the area. I typically get a decent signal below 3000AGL. Slowing down seems to help.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

Good point.

Indeed it is. However, it never really occurred to me that is was illegal.  Having flown several aircraft that never had electrical systems installed.  I planned the flight just like I would have in an old Aeronca only with better ground speeds.