Mooney Experimental

[ESPN168]

Just wondering if anyone has taken the mooney J/F and went experimental with it? what would be the best fit engine you would use? I really wanted to see the mooney going with the RR500. 

[alextstone]

That cannot be done in any practical sense.  Read up on experimental - exhibition certification.

[Austintatious]

Ehh, the problem with a turbine on these aircraft is that they just do not have the fuel capacity to turn them into anything useful.

That engine in cruise burns 35 GPH.  That would mean that even with 100 gallons you would have 2.5 hours TOPS.

I too understand how sweet a turbine would be... but what is needed is something that burns about 20 GPH putting out 250 HP in cruise.  That would make a 230 knot airplane that could fly for 3 hours,  4 if you had the 105 gallon tanks.

Now what makes MORE sense is this https://www.continentalmotors.aero/diesel/engines/cd300.aspx

 

So imagine 300 Hp burning 10 GPH of 2.00 JET A !!!

You could fill your completely empty 75 gallon tanks for 150 bucks and you would have 6.5 hours of range with a 1 hour reserve at over 200 knots.

THIS is what Mooney should be putting on their new aircraft.  It would be unrivaled in efficiency

.

[alextstone]

Just now, Austintatious said:

 

Now what makes MORE sense is this https://www.continentalmotors.aero/diesel/engines/cd300.aspx

 

So imagine 300 Hp burning 10 GPH of 2.00 JET A !!!

I've got my eye on that and similar engines for my Bravo when the time comes for replacement...although my engine reserve may be spent soon on groceries and toilet paper.

[McMooney]

would love that in an E

[Austintatious]

57 minutes ago, alextstone said:

I've got my eye on that and similar engines for my Bravo when the time comes for replacement...although my engine reserve may be spent soon on groceries and toilet paper.

Yea but how do you go about putting it in?  An STC ?

[PJClark]

1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

I too understand how sweet a turbine would be... but what is needed is something that burns about 20 GPH putting out 250 HP in cruise.  That would make a 230 knot airplane that could fly for 3 hours,  4 if you had the 105 gallon tanks.

Huh.  Well my Rocket will do 250 hp at 21 gph in cruise..and allegedly it'll do 215-220 knots true above FL210. My 252 conversion will hold 103 gallons. 'Course those are avgas gallons at $5 per gallon...

[Austintatious]

8 minutes ago, PJClark said:

Huh.  Well my Rocket will do 250 hp at 21 gph in cruise..and allegedly it'll do 215-220 knots true above FL210. My 252 conversion will hold 103 gallons. 'Course those are avgas gallons at $5 per gallon...

That is my point... you need a turbine engine that can do at least that for it to make any sense.  There are currently no turbine engines that would be suitable replacements, they all burn too much fuel.

 

I have 2 rockets, and yes, I get 210 knots at 210, but I am only burning about 17-18GPH.

[PJClark]

We need a Rocket fly-in when stuff settles down.  Or an "M20T" fly in for all us Turbo speed runners. I'd like to raise a glass with some of you bros.

[aviatoreb]

32 minutes ago, PJClark said:

We need a Rocket fly-in when stuff settles down.  Or an "M20T" fly in for all us Turbo speed runners. I'd like to raise a glass with some of you bros.

I’m in.

[gsxrpilot]

34 minutes ago, PJClark said:

We need a Rocket fly-in when stuff settles down.  Or an "M20T" fly in for all us Turbo speed runners. I'd like to raise a glass with some of you bros.

Thanks for amending the group to include the rest of us turbos. I'm so in. And I'll buy the first round! 

[ESPN168]

Thanks for the respond guys, gonna kill another night reading up on those links. I still don't get the toilet paper thing yet..maybe it's because we have one of those $5000 Toto toilet that does everything for us. After I installed and tried the toilet out now I know why europeans are always much happier people. 

[carusoam]

Where’s the thread where somebody is taking their Mooney out of the normal category for something not quite experimental... called the Primary Category...

@Flybeech21 see if this question is in line with your direction..?

Austin, send a note to your friends at Continental...  their spec chart lists their 300hp diesel with 1,823 in³ ... the comma got moved... on the same page the proper number is in a spec list...  1800cubes would be gigantic! 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[markgrue]

I talked to my fsdo briefly about the primary category and he said " huh?  Never heard of it.  I will look into it"  I am seriously thinking about it.

 

Mark

[ESPN168]

18 minutes ago, markgrue said:

I talked to my fsdo briefly about the primary category and he said " huh?  Never heard of it.  I will look into it"  I am seriously thinking about it.

 

Mark

Mark, let me know if find out anything about it.  I have been in the market for a Mooney for a while now and I know that any  Mooney I end buying I would have to do the avionic overhual and and engine overhual as well since I was looking something on the lower $ at its 2000hr mark. I have a chance to get an F with electric gear with no engine.  Also I would assumed the law might a little different in Canada then States,  If anyone from Canada can chime in I would appreciated. 

[ESPN168]

5 hours ago, alextstone said:

I've got my eye on that and similar engines for my Bravo when the time comes for replacement...although my engine reserve may be spent soon on groceries and toilet paper.

This Continental looks awesome.  Gonna check out some pricing any AME wanna shoot me a ball park figure on its installation.  Clarence!

[carusoam]

ESPN, 

You may want to add a location to your avatar data fields...

This will help you get better responses...

Best regards,

-a-

[MoonFlyer68]

I have been watching these guys for some time.  The primary engine they are focused on is the 180 HP, but they are also developing a 200 HP version that would be great in my M20F.  Someday they may get the final FAA approval and then it will be a long time I am sure before it ever makes it's way into a Mooney.  I would love to be the one to make it happen, but I assume that the FAA wold want an absolute mountain of paperwork and test data before they would allow it.

https://deltahawk.com/content/deltahawk-dh180a4

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Ehh, the problem with a turbine on these aircraft is that they just do not have the fuel capacity to turn them into anything useful.

That engine in cruise burns 35 GPH.  That would mean that even with 100 gallons you would have 2.5 hours TOPS.

I too understand how sweet a turbine would be... but what is needed is something that burns about 20 GPH putting out 250 HP in cruise.  That would make a 230 knot airplane that could fly for 3 hours,  4 if you had the 105 gallon tanks.

Now what makes MORE sense is this https://www.continentalmotors.aero/diesel/engines/cd300.aspx

 

So imagine 300 Hp burning 10 GPH of 2.00 JET A !!!

You could fill your completely empty 75 gallon tanks for 150 bucks and you would have 6.5 hours of range with a 1 hour reserve at over 200 knots.

THIS is what Mooney should be putting on their new aircraft.  It would be unrivaled in efficiency

.

Well since we are dreaming and going experimental,

I want this engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineered_Propulsion_Systems_Graflight_V-8.   https://www.avweb.com/ownership/engines/eps-graflight-v-8-in-certification-testing/.   http://www.flyingmag.com/eps-diesel-engine-nears-certification. https://eps.aero/the-eps-engine/the-eps-advantage/

8 cylinder diesel 450hp so 337hp at 75% at 16.5gph if I remember.  Hang that on the nose of an acclaim body and I think you are going to move out pretty quickly.  I'll make up a number - I think you would have cruise numbers faster than the acclaim advertised numbers which are 242 on 100% power off the usual continental - not the cruise setting - so I am going to guess you could cruise at 265TAS at altitude.

Edited April 1, 2020 by aviatoreb

[kerry]

A few years ago I called Mooney regarding a part I needed for my m20A.  When I called Mooney it happened to be Bill Wheat I was on the phone with.  We started talking about my m20A's and he was telling me that he was the person that most likely test flew my airplane.  I checked my logs and yes I confirmed he test flew my plane.  Bill told me how Mooney put a 250 HP Lycoming in a m20A and he test flew it.  He told me it was the best combination of an engine in a Mooneys he's every flown.  I would think that would be the same with any short body Mooney variant.  I think it would have been a great direction if Mooney did so.  

[rcwagner]

Did anyone consider the weight of the continental diesel.  548 lbs may be a bit heavy to hang on the front of a Mooney.

 

[McMooney]

just read up on a gm lm2 I6 diesel,  that would do it 8)

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, ESPN168 said:

Mark, let me know if find out anything about it.  I have been in the market for a Mooney for a while now and I know that any  Mooney I end buying I would have to do the avionic overhual and and engine overhual as well since I was looking something on the lower $ at its 2000hr mark. I have a chance to get an F with electric gear with no engine.  Also I would assumed the law might a little different in Canada then States,  If anyone from Canada can chime in I would appreciated. 

@M20Doc can chime in, but the impression I get is that Transport Canada regulations are mostly similar but slightly more strict than FAA regulations.  I don't recall hearing about something equivalent to Primary Category Special Airworthiness certification?

I suspect moving a Mooney to Primary Category is a pipe dream.  While it may meet the letter of the regulations, it certainly violates the spirit of it ("simple in design").  Since having a Primary Category aircraft comes with additional privileges involving owner maintenance, it's hard to imagine the feds would be eager to hand you the keys for free.  That opposed to Experimental Category kit planes where you are required to do the majority of the work, which the FAA sees as ensuring you learn enough about the aircraft that they are willing to give you those privileges.

[Guest]

Here is the list of “owner maintenance category” airframes under Transport Canada.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/transport-canada/corporate/acts-regulations/regulations/sor-96-433/part5-standards-a507sh-1837.htm

Only the Mooney M18, M20,A,B

Clarence

[Ibra]

15 hours ago, ESPN168 said:

Just wondering if anyone has taken the mooney J/F and went experimental with it? what would be the best fit engine you would use? I really wanted to see the mooney going with the RR500. 

The M20J VNE/VNO are 195kts/175kts, these are irrespective of power plant and she does 165kts on IO360 engine

The new engine will barely cover an extra 30kts/10kts  also no idea about the initial/running costs but obvious advantage of that RR500 engine is the sound on the ramp, priceless 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Ibra