Gear Up Landings

[jlunseth]

There are three separate things being talked about now, (1) staying in the pattern for practice landings, (2) flying an approach, and (3) flying a normal approach to the airport.  The practice is different on all three, and how you do any one of them does not dictate how you should do the others. Here is what I do if it is of use to anyone:

1.  Staying in the pattern.  This is a practice drill.  The purpose of it is to repeatedly practice not just landings, but takeoffs, climb outs, and all the steps that go along with.  I raise the gear (and flaps) at positive rate because that is the drill, and because it practices the pitch changes that go along with it. I drop the gear when I turn downwind because that practices the sequence and the pitch changes that go with it.  But in pattern practice you are never more than a mile, mile and a half out at most.  There is no opportunity to be safer.  That should not dictate what you do when there is such an opportunity. 

2.  Instrument approach.  Slow to approach speed before the approach, does not matter much how far out, 120 kts.  Fly the back course or vectors.  At the FAF, Time, Gear, Power, Tower, Lights, Lights, Lights. Fly the approach.

3. Normal approach to the airport. Pull the throttle back to slow from cruise at 6 miles, when the airspeed drops to 120 kts., drop the gear.  Just like Paul K, I could drop at a higher airspeed, but I am the guy paying for the gear and I have had the privilege of repairing gear door leading edges so I like to be well below Vle.  Let the plane slow to 90 joining the downwind, then normal approach to a landing.

None of these are the same.  Staying in the pattern is a practice drill. You don’t drop the gear at 6 miles because you are never 6 miles out. So why let that affect what you do when you can drop the gear further out.  There is never a chance in pattern practice to be safer, that is, to drop the gear out from the airport, because I am never out from the airport.

Same with instrument approaches.  The gear goes down at the FAF because that is the drill.  I do it the same way every time, making it habit and less likely I will make a mistake.  Also, dropping the gear at the FAF lowers airspeed at the FAF from approach speed at 120, to final course speed at 90 (with half flaps) which matches the 90 kt category in the the time table if there is one.

Notice something about the instrument approach though.  Where is the FAF?  Check a plate.  It is between 5 and 7 miles before the runway and before the pattern, which is a high distraction area.  That gives time, among other things, to stabilize and to notice if you failed to drop the gear and are having trouble managing airspeed on the downslope.

So number 1, practice in the pattern, is a habit drill and has no bearing on what you should do during a normal approach.  Number 2 has you drop the gear 5-7 miles out, same as my normal approach to the airport. That’s a hint, maybe dropping 5-7 miles out is a good idea.

In number 3 you have an opportunity to be safer than in pattern practice drills.  Drop the gear at 6 miles, before you enter the distraction field where anything can happen and you should focus on flying the plane.

Sure there are exceptions, if ATC needs you to keep speed up landing in a Class B or C, then you do what you can.  But because there is an exception does not mean you should not be safer than that in your normal practice.

Now, the best thing a pilot can do is practice good habits.  If someone has habits that serve them well, then it is better to practice the habits than do something different.  But the premise here is what can we Mooney pilots do to stop the frequent gear ups, which don’t just affect the poor pilot who made the mistake, but affects all of us because we pay insurance rates that reflect those accidents.  Obviously what we are being trained to do right now creates problems, too many pilots are landing gear up. So do something different.  Anticipate that the pattern is full of distractions and take the opportunity to arm yourself against them before you get there.  

 

[LANCECASPER]

30 minutes ago, Ibra said:

The earlier the better as things do get hectic bellow 2000ft agl with barely enough mental capacity to keep height/speed under control let alone configuration

Warning devices are not much of use as brains/ears stop working bellow 500ft under stress/distraction, but the eyes are highly reliable in that situation

I suggest writing "GEAR UP" on top of runway numbers? windshield screen? or marked on the ASI arc/tape?

A cheap solution for us who can't afford a 1m$ HUD

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/tpp-geardown.php?clickkey=71555

[tmo]

14 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

I’ve read stories where both audible and visual gear alerts have been ignored, resulting in a gear up landing.

This might be the video you're looking for.  No Mooneys have been harmed filming that video, fear not.  Some nice scenery, too.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, joegoersch said:

I was thinking that basic "power, performance" in the pattern would solve the problem, e.g. 2000 RPM, 17 inches MP--expect 90kts.  When you see 120 knots you know something is wrong.  but as others have pointed out, distraction or a change in routine is often what gets you.  This would not have helped me when I flew into Logan in my M20J it was asked to keep up 165 knots on final !

I think it would be very easy to make an app, or an addition to any of the flying apps, which remind you to put your gear down when you go to within  400 ft (GPS altitude, it shouldn't matter if it's off by a hundred feet or so) above pattern altitude within 4 miles of your destination.  However, this would not be hooked into the gear system.  So potentially it would sound every time and be ignored.  Alternatively, there could be a "gear down" button on the app that you would push when you put your landing gear down and pushing that button could be part of your standard check.  Pushing that button would then turn off the warning for that flight.

This is not an optimal solution, but it is a $5 help (maybe).

Thoughts ?

 

Solve? No. Help? Yes.

The best solution is a combination of different clues which all tell us all tell us the same thing - the expected performance you mention being wrong, airspeed, missing drag, the "500" annunciated by many newer avionics, gear warnings - that the gear is up.  Add a healthy dose of a consistent SOP backed up by good checklist use and we might have something less likely to be forgotten. 

That's what I teach when I do complex transition training. One of the most pleasing moments was during a transition into a 182RG. About ready to head back from our practice area, I pulled the gear breaker. He came to the point where the SOP he developed said it was time to put the gear down. He put the handle down and within seconds turned to me and said, "what did you do, the gear didn't come down."  

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

 

2.  Instrument approach.  Slow to approach speed before the approach, does not matter much how far out, 120 kts.  Fly the back course or vectors.  At the FAF, Time, Gear, Power, Tower, Lights, Lights, Lights. Fly the approach.

 

The problem with relying on anything as prescriptive as you describe is that is often does not work in the real world. Rarely are arrivals into busy airports routine enough to guarantee that a prescriptive approach will be employable, especially for those of us who's gear speed is well below the 120knots you describe. 

-Robert

[epsalant]

I think, at least for me, the problem is when things don't go as planned. Tower asks you to make a 20 mile straight-in landing, or they give you all sorts of crazy vectors and make you do a 360 for traffic, or something else goes and miss which messes up your normal routine. I know flying into some sleepy airport only to find five airplanes in the pattern of which I only see one increases the stress level and I could imagine forgeting putting the gear down in such a situation.

An approach and crappy weather I could also imagine forgetting to put the cure down, especially on some approach that doesn't have a final approach fix (e.g. N51 VOR4 )... Any situation which is not standard.

I had a friend almost forgot to put his gear down when both he and the CFI were practicing power off landing with simulated engine failure.

It's fairly easy to put the gear down on a CAVU day in the pattern while practicing landings. it's a lot harder while on an approach, looking for traffic, worrying about your increasing oil temperature, your battery which is showing low voltage...etc.

Every gear up seems to have its own story. I know of someone who's airplane would not start. They got a jump start and made a routine flight in the pattern. They were so focused on determining whether or not the alternator was working, they ignored the gear warning alarm and landed on the belly!

I guess a b****in' Betty or something equivalent would do the trick here...IF the pilot listened to it.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[MooneyMitch]

2 minutes ago, epsalant said:

I think, at least for me, the problem is when things don't go as planned. Tower asks you to make a 20 mile straight-in landing, or they give you all sorts of crazy vectors and make you do a 360 for traffic, or something else goes and miss which messes up your normal routine. I know flying into some sleepy airport only to find five airplanes in the pattern of which I only see one increases the stress level and I could imagine forgeting putting the gear down in such a situation.

An approach and crappy weather I could also imagine forgetting to put the cure down, especially on some approach that doesn't have a final approach fix (e.g. N51 VOR4 )... Any situation which is not standard.

I had a friend almost forgot to put his gear down when both he and the CFI were practicing power off landing with simulated engine failure.

It's fairly easy to put the gear down on a CAVU day in the pattern while practicing landings. it's a lot harder while on an approach, looking for traffic, worrying about your increasing oil temperature, your battery which is showing low voltage...etc.

Every gear up seems to have its own story. I know of someone who's airplane would not start. They got a jump start and made a routine flight in the pattern. They were so focused on determining whether or not the alternator was working, they ignored the gear warning alarm and landed on the belly!

I guess a b****in' Betty or something equivalent would do the trick here...IF the pilot listened to it.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

I still vote for the doggie collar approach ! 

[skydvrboy]

16 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I put the gear down no closer than six miles out.

I think for me, this would likely lead to a GU landing rather than prevent it.  The closest I've come to a GU so far was during my transition training.  Instead of the usual depart the pattern, go somewhere, enter the pattern, we were did a go-around.  After takeoff, I forgot to put the gear up.  Then at my normal point at midfield downwind, I grabbed the Johnson bar and moved it to the other position.  My instructor waited a few moments to see if I would catch the error and then asked if I really wanted my gear up for landing.

Now that I have a routine of putting gear down at midfield downwind, if I start putting it down 6 miles out would I at some point move the handle the wrong direction at my normal gear down point?  I think I would be at a high risk for that until the 6 mile gear drop became my new normal.

[Ibra]

17 minutes ago, epsalant said:

I think, at least for me, the problem is when things don't go as planned.

Surely any "reminder technique" will run out of steam when the pilot clock cycle is measured in 6 seconds instead of 6 minutes, I am not sure if it is a good idea to train to fly safely while "rush things" or "hand/cockpit free flying" all from memory?

When you fly a well planned cross-country or well executed repetitive pattern you can claim to be safe from distraction but all of it melts when you have to: divert, orbit, go-around, land in weather, fit in traffic, long fast final...

The reason is simple: slow/fast pilot clock cycles and heart beat levels, if you can't name 3 things you want to see, 3 thing to hear and move 3 muscles, then you will forget about the gear 

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

That is, sadly, a training issue. We managed to have learned how to ignore warnings.  It has plenty of sources, from systems which produce too many of them (yes, dammit, I know the pitot heat is off. It's f'in 90 degrees and CAVU, and yes, I know I have entered the Class D I am landing at!) to (flame suit on) old-style slow flight which considers hearing a warning continuously for an extended period without correcting the reason as the height of good airmanship.

I couldn't agree more. The crusty old man who taught me to fly, was instant that if a warning came on, immediately do whatever was required to turn the warning off. So if the gear warning comes on, either drop the gear or apply power. Either way will silence the horn. But whatever you do, don't sit there and listen to it.

[tmo]

2 hours ago, epsalant said:

I had a friend almost forgot to put his gear down when both he and the CFI were practicing power off landing with simulated engine failure.

A flight school I know gear-up-ed a PA30 with a student pilot flying, FI teaching, and head of maintenance along for the ride to listen to "weird sounds" the landing gear was supposedly making.  Granted it was the 10th or so circuit, but nevertheless, stuff happens when you least expect it.

[GeeBee]

When the Piper Arrow first appeared with its automatic gear drop and myriad of warnings, FLYING magazine gushed that "only a very special idiot could land an Arrow gear up. Three weeks later that special idiot was found. Gear like LOC requires rigorous attention.

 

[Hank]

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

There are three separate things being talked about now, (1) staying in the pattern for practice landings, (2) flying an approach, and (3) flying a normal approach to the airport.  The practice is different on all three, and how you do any one of them does not dictate how you should do the others. Here is what I do if it is of use to anyone:

1.  Staying in the pattern.  This is a practice drill.  The purpose of it is to repeatedly practice not just landings, but takeoffs, climb outs, and all the steps that go along with.  I raise the gear (and flaps) at positive rate because that is the drill, and because it practices the pitch changes that go along with it. I drop Approach flaps when turning downwind, and drop the gear when I turn on downwind abeam my intended point of landing because that practices the sequence and the pitch changes that go with it.  But in pattern practice you are never more than a mile, mile and a half out at most.  There is no opportunity to be safer.  That should not dictate what you do when there is such an opportunity. 

2.  Instrument approach.  Slow to approach speed before the approach, does not matter much how far out, 120 kts.  Fly the back course or vectors, slow to 90 knots / 105 mph with Approach flaps before the FAF.  At the FAF, Time, Gear, Power, Tower, Lights, Lights, Lights. Fly the approach.

3. Normal approach to the airport. Pull the throttle back to slow from cruise at 6 miles, when the airspeed drops to 120 kts.,to enter the pattern at 90 mph, and drop the gear on downwind abeam my intended point of landing .  Just like Paul K, I could drop at a higher airspeed, but I am the guy paying for the gear and I have had the privilege of repairing gear door leading edges so I like to be well below Vle.  Let the plane slow to 90 joining the downwind, then normal approach to a landing.

None of these are the same.  Staying in the pattern is a practice drill. You don’t drop the gear at 6 miles because you are never 6 miles out. So why let that affect what you do when you can drop the gear further out.  There is never a chance in pattern practice to be safer, that is, to drop the gear out from the airport, because I am never out from the airport.

Same with instrument approaches.  The gear goes down at the FAF because that is the drill.  I do it the same way every time, making it habit and less likely I will make a mistake.  Also, dropping the gear at the FAF lowers airspeed at the FAF from approach speed at 120, to final course speed at 90 (with half flaps) which matches the 90 kt category in the the time table if there is one.

Notice something about the instrument approach though.  Where is the FAF?  Check a plate.  It is between 5 and 7 miles before the runway and before the pattern, which is a high distraction area.  That gives time, among other things, to stabilize and to notice if you failed to drop the gear and are having trouble managing airspeed on the downslope.

So number 1, practice in the pattern, is a habit drill and has no bearing on what you should do during a normal approach.  Number 2 has you drop the gear 5-7 miles out, same as my normal approach to the airport. That’s a hint, maybe dropping 5-7 miles out is a good idea.

In number 3 you have an opportunity to reinforce your established habits, and drop the gear just like you are doing pattern work. to be safer than in pattern practice drills.  Drop the gear at 6 miles, before you enter the distraction field where anything can happen and you should focus on flying the plane.

Sure there are exceptions, if ATC needs you to keep speed up landing in a Class B or C, then you do what you can.  But because there is an exception does not mean you should not be safer than that in your normal practice.

Now, the best thing a pilot can do is practice good habits. So practice your habits effectively. I have two habits:  VFR, gear goes down to begin descent from pattern; IFR, gear goes down to initiate descent at FAF. So my gear always initiates the descent. Except when it doesn't . . . . If someone has habits that serve them well, then it is better to practice the habits than do something different.  But the premise here is what can we Mooney pilots do to stop the frequent gear ups, which don’t just affect the poor pilot who made the mistake, but affects all of us because we pay insurance rates that reflect those accidents.  Obviously what we are being trained to do right now creates problems, too many pilots are landing gear up. So do something different.  Anticipate that the pattern is full of distractions and take the opportunity to arm yourself against them before you get there.  

 

Hmm, did something wrong, can't write above your quoted post, but I edited it to reflect my Vintage Mooney habits. You have three distinct gear habits in your K--pattern work [to initiate descent], IFR [to initiate descent] and VFR [to slow down]. In all cases, I use my gear to initiate descent, with a couple of odd exceptions that I have encountered below . . . . .

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Solve? No. Help? Yes.

The best solution is a combination of different clues which all tell us all tell us the same thing - the expected performance you mention being wrong, airspeed, missing drag, the "500" annunciated by many newer avionics, gear warnings - that the gear is up.  Add a healthy dose of a consistent SOP backed up by good checklist use and we might have something less likely to be forgotten. 

That's what I teach when I do complex transition training. One of the most pleasing moments was during a transition into a 182RG. About ready to head back from our practice area, I pulled the gear breaker. He came to the point where the SOP he developed said it was time to put the gear down. He put the handle down and within seconds turned to me and said, "what did you do, the gear didn't come down."  

Yes, yes, yes!!! The green text here says it all. Be consistent, know your plane's responses, and when something is different, look for a cause.

2 hours ago, epsalant said:

I think, at least for me, the problem is when things don't go as planned. Tower asks you to make a 20 mile straight-in landing, or they give you all sorts of crazy vectors and make you do a 360 for traffic, or something else goes and miss which messes up your normal routine. I know flying into some sleepy airport only to find five airplanes in the pattern of which I only see one increases the stress level and I could imagine forgeting putting the gear down in such a situation.

An approach and crappy weather I could also imagine forgetting to put the cure down, especially on some approach that doesn't have a final approach fix (e.g. N51 VOR4 )... Any situation which is not standard.

I had a friend almost forgot to put his gear down when both he and the CFI were practicing power off landing with simulated engine failure.

It's fairly easy to put the gear down on a CAVU day in the pattern while practicing landings. it's a lot harder while on an approach, looking for traffic, worrying about your increasing oil temperature, your battery which is showing low voltage...etc.

This is also too true. The closest I have come was during Operation Airdrop in NC, when RDU Approach kept me at 7500 and vectored me 20 nm north before turning my on final approach, #8 to land. This was completely weird, trying to descend from 7500' at cruise speed . . . Remembered to double-check the gear on short final, where I always look and point at the floor indicator, which was not green. I think the gear locked down crossing the threshold. But like the time I was entranced by the curving GPS approach path into KECP for the Mooney Summit, in and out of the bottoms, and it took until breakout at ~1200' to realize why I could either hold glideslope or speed but not both; was cleared for a VFR "miss" and circle to standard VFR pattern to land. Gearing up at the Summit would have made a bad situation even worse!

have a standard practice. Mine is gear down to go down to land; descent from cruise to Approach / pattern is typically power on, just push on the yoke and trim the forces away. Landing requires wheels, so descent for landing also requires wheels.

@epsalant, while VOR4 at N51 has no FAF, treat the roll out from the procedure turn to inbound on 016 as if it was. That's how I learned to do VOR-A approaches. Having APEGE halfway to the runway makes no sense to me. I would overfly the VOR at 90 knots / 105 mph with Takeoff Flaps, head outbound on 196, do the procedure turn, and when rolling wings level on 016, drop the gear to begin the descent for landing.

Your mileage may vary. But do establish a standard procedure for yourself, and stick to it!

[steingar]

18 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Putting the gear down 6 miles out may work well at small fields but flying into class B’s and busy class C’s at 120 mph is going to get you jn a very long hold. 
-Robert 

Does that mean they don't let Skyhawks land in any of these places?

[epsalant]

Anyone know of a (pilot error, not mechanical) gear up with a bitchin' Betty?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Ibra]

32 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

So if the gear warning comes on, either drop the gear or apply power. Either way will silence the horn. But whatever you do, don't sit there and listen to it.

The warnings I have all sound the same: stall horn, gear horn, marker, terrain...I will go with full power and forward yoke

I always look at gear switch when the stall horns flare ground roll 

 

 

[jlunseth]

@Hank

I have no problem at all with people developing their own strategies for flying their aircraft.  I would expect a short body to be different than my midbody.  I just had the privilege to fly a 300XL.  Approach speed was 160 kts., landing was around 80 kts., not much different from most of our Mooneys.  The instructor did not throttle back until medium final, not because he was a hot rodder, but because the aircraft lost speed that fast.  No gear to drop or flaps to deploy either.  I told him if I tried that I in my Mooney I would be lucky to touch down on the approach stripes on the far end, and KIWA has a long runway.

I am just trying to get people to think in terms of getting the gear down and get stabilized before the "distraction field," i.e. the pattern, where anything can happen and usually does.

[tmo]

OK, I'll bite - is the "flaps before gear" approach due to speed limitations in the earlier Mooneys, or is there some reasoning behind it?  My M20K POH has noticeably higher speeds for gear down (132 KIAS) than for flaps (112 KIAS) and I'd always do gear first, flaps later as needed.  FWIW, I've been told gear goes down on downwind / abeam threshold.

Edited February 18, 2020 by tmo

[Ibra]

 

40 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

stabilized before the "distraction field," i.e. the pattern, where anything can happen and usually does.

Yes earlier the better IMO, name the 3 most important things for flying and do them first, when bellow 500ft you should just monitor your master piece landing 

Dropping gear at 130kts vs 60kts does not cost any extra fuel: both are bellow 40% power, so 2USG vs 4USG for 30min?  

Though I never touch the flaps unless I need them to fly slow or land !

Edited February 18, 2020 by Ibra

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, epsalant said:

Anyone know of a (pilot error, not mechanical) gear up with a bitchin' Betty?

I'd bet they exist.

Right now I have the factory gear warning horn, the AV-17 Bitchin' Betty, and the 500-ft callout on my Avidyne, which I use for an automatic  backup GUMPS check.   I keep my fingers crossed that all of this gives me sufficient warning to greatly reduce my likelihood of missing the gear switch, but I know the probability isn't zero.   If the gear isn't automatic you can't get the probability of forgetting it to zero, so you do what you can to minimize the likelihood.   I've gotten it to nearly a reflex to put my hand on the gear handle when I get the 500-ft warning, but if crap is happening at the time I can see that getting missed, too.    So far I'm happy to say I've always had the gear down well before I get to that point, and I'll consider it a failure of sorts if I ever get the 500-ft callout with the gear still up.

 

[midlifeflyer]

54 minutes ago, tmo said:

OK, I'll bite - is the "flaps before gear" approach due to speed limitations in the earlier Mooneys, or is there some reasoning behind it?  My M20K POH has noticeably higher speeds for gear down (132 KIAS) than for flaps (112 KIAS) and I'd always do gear first, flaps later as needed.  FWIW, I've been told gear goes down on downwind / abeam threshold.

Beats me, I fly my instrument approaches with no flaps  in most airplanes.

[brad]

This discussion is great!  Thanks to everyone for jumping in.  The more attention we pay to this, the better for us all.

[Ibra]

@midlifeflyer I agree no or 1/2 flaps helps with instrument precision and avoid a full flaps draggy go-around (an instrument runway is usually long to land even clean if you fail to put full falps and going out of trim in clouds is not funny), the only thing I had in mind was gear retraction speed but one would usually bleed that with pitch up

I still don't get the reasons why gear extension and retraction speeds are different? and why no such difference in the max speed to extend and retract flaps? (apart from the obvious VS1-VS0) 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Ibra

[gsxrpilot]

My instrument approaches are almost always no flaps. Normal landings for me are either no flaps or take-off flaps. I pretty much only use full flaps if I need to make the first turn off or stuff it into a short field.

So gear is always before flaps. And my rule for when to extend the gear is... before landing.

If I disappear off of MooneySpace, it will either be because I sold the Mooney, or because I gear-upped my 252 and am too embarrassed to face this crowd 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Ibra said:

I still don't get the reasons why gear extension and retraction speeds are different? and why no such difference in the max speed to extend and retract flaps? (apart from the obvious VS1-VS0) 

On a J the aero load tries to pull the gear down, so the load dynamics on the motor and drive are different between going up and going down.   On mine the gear breaker will pop going up if I'm over 90kts or so, but it has no problem putting the gear down near the max down transit speed.

Edited February 19, 2020 by EricJ