Cost per hour to fly?

[panther1400]

Its almost like some of the threads about speed and fuel burn, but here goes. 

 

What if any extra does it cost extra to fly a 231 over a 201, fuel, insurance, annual, maintence (cost per mile not per hour because you can go farther per hour in a 231)?

[David Mazer]

My variable costs for my Rocket are about $45/hr (reserve for OH, reserve for prop, oil, etc) + fuel.  Fuel is running $5.00/gal and my typical cruise is 17.2 gph.  That comes to $131/hr.  Adding a bit for fudge, say $140/hr total variable expense.  Now the tricky part, ground speed, or TAS and assuming zero wind, at what altitude?  I usually cruise at 185 - 190 kts below 10,000 and about 200 - 205 in the mid-teens.  On the conservative side that would be 140/187.5 = $0.75/nm or $0.65/sm.  A 231 will be less for each variable (reserve, fuel, and speed) but I don't know the proportionality.  Fixed cost is difficult to add to the equation as the number of hours/year so affects the cost per hour or mile that I just don't include it in the calculation and I just know it is a lot.

[Cris]

duplicate

[Cris]

The 201 is actually a few knots faster below about 8000'. You might want to do the calculations on the typical altitude that you will fly in either A/C including block time ie climb, cruise & descent. In terms of fixed costs Mazerbase is correct in that it depends primarily on the hours flown. As an example insurance, tie down/hanger and a base rate annual divided by the number of hours flown. That rate will probably be within a few dollars with either plane but here is a spread sheet that you can use that might help. http://ben.com/flying/costown.html In addition some folks use depreciation & interest expense on the loan which may be off set by business deductions if you are able. In the end owning an A/C is really more of an emotional issue that a financial one so chose the A/C that you really like imho.

[David Mazer]

That is a nice calculator but you need to remember to add things like subscriptions for Garmins and the dreaded other expenses that come up every year.  PlaneQuest.com also has a calculator for the 201 and the 231.  You might want to look there as well.

[Cris]

Quote: Mazerbase

That is a nice calculator but you need to remember to add things like subscriptions for Garmins and the dreaded other expenses that come up every year. 

[docket]

I dont wanna know -- it would not be pretty.  I just fly.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: panther1400

fuel - 17-18 SMPG at high power LOP instead of 20 SMPG in the M20J.  Throttled back, I can get 173 KTAS on 10.5-11 gph at 14,000 when ROP.  Working on getting my engine to run LOP.

insurance - about the same price

annual - extra 1-2 hours of base labor, plus more squawks for more complicated systems.

maintence - give it 30% more cost just to be safe.  You might find it cheaper than that.

(cost per mile not per hour because you can go farther per hour in a 231)?

[201driver]

Quote: docket

I dont wanna know -- it would not be pretty.  I just fly.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: docket

I dont wanna know -- it would not be pretty.  I just fly.

[Parker_Woodruff]

here I am with a 4 page spreadsheet detailing my every outlay...

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: docket

I dont wanna know -- it would not be pretty.  I just fly.

[Hank]

There are two costs--the cost to own, and the cost to operate.

Your ownership cost difference will be mostly the acquisition price, unless you have to pay state property tax based on the value of the aircraft. [Here, it is $15 per seat, so no difference.] Insurance will vary, too, and the annual will increase with more systems to inspect/repair. GPS & weather cost do not vary between aircraft unless you have multiple units, each requiring its own subscription. Either plane will obviously fit into the same hangar. Some people like to divide these costs by the hours flown to arrive at an "hourly cost" that fluctuates tremendously from year to year. [i've logged from 84 to 127 hours per year since I bought mine four years ago--no, I don't include these costs in my operating expense nor compute the hourly cost of them. I try to not add them up, not even just in my head.]

Operating expenses are fuel, oil, tires and engine reserve. You can search this board and find many discussions [some with actual costs] for overhauling/replacing engines. Allow some extra for maintenance as things are used, plus the biennial pitot-static check. My last check ended up replacing the static tubing, the ASI & Alt [it was close up to 10K, then diverged wildly above that]. This will be more critical in a turbo, and you will require an Altimeter rated to higher than the 20,000 msl unit that I have, which will certainly cost more to purchase/overhaul/repair.

Turbos also require an oxygen system, O2 refills, and every few years a new tank. Oxygen tubes, cannulas and masks have short life spans [12-24 months]; check on things like flowmeters and regulators. What about the microphone in the mask? I don't ever go that high, so I'm just guessing. High-altitude flight is a whole different subject, talk to the turbo drivers about the different addons that you will need to buy, maintain and replace. A back-up O2 system is also wise to have, so more disposable costs for it, too. But you will get to outclimb much of the weather. Don't forget things like TKS fluid, alcohol, fuel additives, etc.

[jetdriven]

Our M20J is 24$ an hour for the time-based comsumables such as engine, prop, gyros, vacuum pump, belt, filters, tires etc.   Fuel is right this second 5.25$ a gallon X 9. So thats 71$ an hour variable cost, or the marginal cost of one additional hour of flying the plane.  On top of the 450$ fixed cost per month for things like hangar, insurance, annual fund etc.  A loan is extra above that if you have one. 

This assumes nothing breaks, and the first year its going to be 5K for unexpected items and minor upgrades. Like a 650$ DG knob that breaks.  I like to fix things as the year goes along and have an annual inspection thats an inspection, not a catch-up.  Some defer all maintenance till the annual and are shocked when its expensive, well,  uh, you never spent money on the plane during the year.

 

Scott and Docket have it right.  Have the fixed costs auto-drafted, dont look at them, put gas in the plane and try to enjoy it.  We used to rent a crappy Arrow for 150$ an hour.  This plane is way faster and turns out cheaper as well.

[David Mazer]

Quote: jetdriven

We used to rent a crappy Arrow for 150$ an hour.  This plane is way faster and turns out cheaper as well.

[gsengle]

Quote: scottfromiowa

 I second that.

[fantom]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

here I am with a 4 page spreadsheet detailing my every outlay...

[Skywarrior]

There's a reason Warren Buffet named his corporate jet "Unjustifiable".

Chuck M.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Mazerbase

We haven't really mentioned the safety factor of renting someone else's equipment.  Will it be well maintained?  Will it have the backup systems you want?  Will it have the stuff you had in it the last time you flew?  Did the last guy bend something when he landed hard on that last practice landing?  This list can go on forever.  However, I don't think it works out cheaper unless you fly a lot of hours every year (over 200 would be an optimistic starting point).  I like knowing what happened to my plane last, what is in it, and how it is maintained even if it does cost a lot more.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Richard Collins years ago wrote an article where he evaluated the cost of flying for a bunch of GA aircraft, and he found it came it came to, on average, about 3x the cost of fuel. Gas was cheaper then, but so was everything else; the estimate probably is still valid today. 

So an older Mooney burning 10 GPH at close to $6 per gallon -- the rule says the total cost of ownership is ~$180 per hour.  At 100 hours per year, yep,  $20,000 sounds about right.  That does not include upgrades, but should cover maintanace, insurance, hanger, taxes and other "unexpected" items that you can count on to crop up, every year.

In theory it is cheaper to rent, but where can you find a good rental aircraft?  

 

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: jerry-N5911Q

Richard Collins years ago wrote an article where he evaluated the cost of flying for a bunch of GA aircraft, and he found it came it came to, on average, about 3x the cost of fuel. Gas was cheaper then, but so was everything else; the estimate probably is still valid today. 

So an older Mooney burning 10 GPH at close to $6 per gallon -- the rule says the total cost of ownership is ~$180 per hour.  At 100 hours per year, yep,  $20,000 sounds about right.  That does not include upgrades, but should cover maintanace, insurance, hanger, taxes and other "unexpected" items that you can count on to crop up, every year.

In theory it is cheaper to rent, but where can you find a good rental aircraft?   

[carusoam]

EB, Renting in the big market....

 

It is difficult to find a plane that you can rent for the weekend and only put two hours of flight time on it.  Our local rentals need to be back at the end of the time slot for the next happy aviator.   It is possible to achieve this during the week but not likely on weekends.  So if weekend travel by plane is your desire, rental is not usually a good solution.

 

Pilotting skills are challenged by rental equipment.  Even identical planes at one school I trained at had different radio set-ups.  It is difficult enough to get everything set for your flight, then try to figure out how a radio/gps/nav device /switch system works on the fly.  We were unable to specify exactly which plane we wanted to fly.

 

Club and partial ownership is a bridge between rent and own.  Some clubs have such few active members, they are like partial ownership with lower costs.  The non-active members paid dues, but never seem to actually use the planes beyond basic currency requirements.  Aircraft can be scheduled in advance for weekend use.   

 

Unfortunately, there are not many Mooney clubs.

 

Best regards,

 

-a-

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Very hard to find a good Mooney to rent.   West Valley Flying Club in the SF Bay area has an "F" that goes for $175 per hour tach time as of August, 2011.  See http://www.wvfc.org/craft/7753m.html for that bird.   

In the mid 2000's I rented an "S" at BWI frequently, it was a great deal at $160 wet, and the FBO didn't care if I took it for a week and flew only 5 or 6 hours as practically nobody but a Mooney owner could meet their insurance requirements...the FBO went bankrupt a few years ago, alas.

I figure if the not-for-profit WVFC rents their vintage Mooney at $175, then Richard Collins' decades-old rule seems to be withstanding the test of time pretty well.

 

 

[jetdriven]

We used to rent a 1975 Arrow II for 150$ an hour, and it was a 132 knot WOTROP 11 GPH machine.  Our plane may be near the cost but unbeliveably more convenient and significantly faster. It had a Garmin 430 but we have an altitude hold with autopilot and an aera and KLN89B (VFR).

[davbert]

The pilot who is only looking to knock around for an hour at at time shooting touch and goes or spend an afternoon in search of a good airport restaraunt will be a solid candidate for a club or as a renter.

The problem with either of these scenarios was mentioned several times. Availability to suit personal schedule and minimum hourly charges are the bane of clubs and renting.  

The cost to avoid schedule conflicts and minimums is the cost of ownership.  It is extremely pleasing to have my stuff plugged in and ready to go as soon as I have the tiedowns undone and the cover stowed.  I could never cost justify the convenience of a taxi-through tie down but it allows me to be off the airport property 10 minutes after shutdown.  How could I possibly justify flying my aircraft anywhere that commercial airline service is available?  Airline travel is cheaper 99% of the time.  

Calculating the cost of the acquisition into the overall budget was also touched on.  The purchase price of an aircraft is pretty much a pay-me-now or pay-me-later scenario.  The cost of an aircraft is based on equipment and maintenance status or history.  The only way one aircraft will be less expensive than a similar competitor is that it is deficient in one or both of those categories.  By the time the cheaper aircraft is brought to the same level of equipment or condition as the more expensive aircraft the owner often finds his overall equipment investment is more than what it would have cost to buy the more expensive aircraft.

The thread is titled "cost per hour to fly?".  Take the total life-cycle costs of the aircraft from acquisition through sale and divide by the hours flown.  It ain't cheap and is not investment grade use of money.