Factory Closed Down?

[afward]

Byron, 2011 was a long time ago, and we don't actually know what their plans are now.  If they are retooling, that means someone there has a plan that's better than hope.

Let's wait and see what comes out of Kerrville next week...

[aviatoreb]

  On 11/15/2019 at 6:58 PM, tmo said:

How does that equate to 400, Extra 400? ;-)

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Simple.  An extra 400 is the adjoint.  Therefore you need to integrate over the domain and don't forget to include the boundary value conditions, probably Von Neumann conditions, in terms of the usual integration by parts.  Voila - full aerobatic.

[aviatoreb]

  On 11/15/2019 at 9:22 PM, afward said:

Byron, 2011 was a long time ago, and we don't actually know what their plans are now.  If they are retooling, that means someone there has a plan that's better than hope.

Let's wait and see what comes out of Kerrville next week...

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An all carbon lighter ultra smooth more aerodynamic faster to produce and faster in cruise wing, a parachute and a 400hp diesel engine and all is forgiven!  :-)  And bigger cup holders for the big gulp.  And with the lighter wing, and of course an MT 4 blade lighter prop, all in 250 lbs of extra useful load, and of course with that 400hp diesel we get more range more speed and you are 12 years younger just flying it.  I am sure this is what will be announced on monday.

[aviatoreb]

  On 11/15/2019 at 7:24 PM, Aviator said:

How many has Diamond sold compared to Cirrus?

Cessna discontinued the 400 and I believe you can add a chute to the 172 and 182.

Anyway, it is just my opinion (and remains so).

 

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I used to have a Diamond.  Their service during my 3years of ownership was TERRIBLE.  I sold since I realized that even having a very nice airplane is useless if you cannot get basic FAA required service from the required factory parts.  So Mooney - and even during the time the factory was closed (last time) the availability of necessary maintenance service was good.  Actually my issues with Diamond the company soured me on new airplanes and so I instinctively stayed away from Cirrus in part because of that but since I have heard from many owners that Cirrus is an excellent support customer oriented company.

[johncuyle]

  On 11/15/2019 at 1:26 PM, Urs_Wildermuth said:

Guys, please take a step back and look at it from the point of view that there IS a reason Mooney only sold 2 airplanes this year whereas Cirrus sells 200. And not only Mooney, also Piper and Cessna don't sell anywhere in that class. The reason is so obvious, it is not worth discussing anymore.

 

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Indeed.  George is talking about how his Cirrus with TKS has a 1200 pound useful load and a new Acclaim with TKS has about a 925 pound useful load.  You can basically stop looking for reasons Cirrus outsells Mooney 100:1 right there, because that's it.

[aviatoreb]

  On 11/15/2019 at 6:44 PM, exM20K said:

Really? Diamond has sold every plane they can make, and if they were available, I could sell a dozen DA20's today.  From the GAMA report, it looks like Cessna is doing fine, too.  

-dan

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This is really weird - that was not me who wrote that but it is appearing under my avatar - who here has hijacked my account?!!!  wikileaks?

[aviatoreb]

  On 11/15/2019 at 7:03 PM, Seth said:

I’ll have one on my Missile soon too . . .

-Seth

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Yay!!!!

[cliffy]

Have  been eating my popcorn and watching this movie. A real suspense thriller (with comedy overtones).

No one knows anything as to what is really happening at Mooney right now. 

All I hear hear is Chicken Little and "the sky is falling"

I'll wait until next week to see what transpires. We may be better off than we think right now. Maybe, maybe not, but all the speculation is just the flapping of gums making noise right now until something definite from the principal is forthcoming.. 

I'm in a holding pattern with 20 mile legs right now and lots of fuel to burn. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by cliffy
sp

[EricJ]

  On 11/15/2019 at 10:06 PM, aviatoreb said:

Simple.  An extra 400 is the adjoint.  Therefore you need to integrate over the domain and don't forget to include the boundary value conditions, probably Von Neumann conditions, in terms of the usual integration by parts.  Voila - full aerobatic.

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...plus a constant.

;)

 

[Bob_Belville]

  On 11/15/2019 at 8:55 PM, jetdriven said:

Their product isn’t selling.  They aren’t really improving it to make it sell. Marketing only goes so far. 

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From what I hear, second hand, is that sad as it sounds, Premier and the other sales folks have been able to sell whatever the factory could get out the door. I suspect that the last long shutdown during which only 9 (or 11?) heroic employees - Mike Miles, Frank Crawford , Stacey Ellis - were wearing many hats and keeping the company alive, albeit on life support, meant that cranking back up involved hiring more green employees than calling back old hands. The result... a Chinese fire drill, a phrase that I suspect is no longer polite.

[aviatoreb]

  On 11/15/2019 at 10:19 PM, EricJ said:

...plus a constant.

 

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Not necessary - included when I stated the boundary conditions - but full points plus bonus points for raising the issue!

[aviatoreb]

  On 11/15/2019 at 10:26 PM, Bob_Belville said:

From what I hear, second hand, is that sad as it sounds, Premier and the other sales folks have been able to sell whatever the factory could get out the door. I suspect that the last long shutdown during which only 9 (or 11?) heroic employees - Mike Miles, Frank Crawford , Stacey Ellis - were wearing many hats and keeping the company alive, albeit on life support, meant that cranking back up involved hiring more green employees than calling back old hands. The result... a Chinese fire drill, a phrase that I suspect is no longer polite.

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I’m sorry for clarity if I seem daft but are you saying that the factory was just incapable of producing product (almost any) despite demand with current personnel?

[EricJ]

  On 11/15/2019 at 10:50 PM, aviatoreb said:

Not necessary - included when I stated the boundary conditions - but full points plus bonus points for raising the issue!

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I knew you had implied the limits were present, I just consider "...plus a constant," to be the integral math joke equivalent of, "That's what she said."   

[Guest]

  On 11/15/2019 at 10:26 PM, Bob_Belville said:

From what I hear, second hand, is that sad as it sounds, Premier and the other sales folks have been able to sell whatever the factory could get out the door. I suspect that the last long shutdown during which only 9 (or 11?) heroic employees - Mike Miles, Frank Crawford , Stacey Ellis - were wearing many hats and keeping the company alive, albeit on life support, meant that cranking back up involved hiring more green employees than calling back old hands. The result... a Chinese fire drill, a phrase that I suspect is no longer polite.

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My Chinese wife and children would agree.

Clarence

[HRM]

Getting back on topic...sort of. P&P just posted another article: Going Direct: Why Did Mooney Fail? It’s Simple! (Not) by Isabel Goyer.

Not to invoke @GeorgePerry again or anything (don't you have to say the name three times?), but the article does mention the SR22.

[aviatoreb]

  On 11/15/2019 at 10:53 PM, EricJ said:

I knew you had implied the limits were present, I just consider "...plus a constant," to be the integral math joke equivalent of, "That's what she said."   

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:-) 

[Bob_Belville]

  On 11/15/2019 at 10:53 PM, aviatoreb said:

I’m sorry for clarity if I seem daft but are you saying that the factory was just incapable of producing product (almost any) despite demand with current personnel?

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Erik, my information would have to be considered hearsay but it has been pretty common knowledge for months -  stuff like outsourcing painting to Longview, and when the plane returns to Kerrville for panel and interior the paint gets damaged so it's then back to Longview for paint touchup,... it's taking 6000+ man-hours to build a plane, even so there are fit and finish issues, ergo the Chinese fire drill label.

[aviatoreb]

  On 11/15/2019 at 11:04 PM, Bob_Belville said:

Erik, my information would have to be considered hearsay but it has been pretty common knowledge for months -  stuff like outsourcing painting to Longview, when the plane returns to Kerrville for panel and interior, than back to Longview to repair damaged paint,... 6000+ man-hours, fit and finish issues, ergo the Chinese fire drill label.

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It’s why I asked it’s not common knowledge to me / Not that I’m doubting / just confirming that is what you meant since it’s surprising.

[TGreen]

  On 11/15/2019 at 10:26 PM, Bob_Belville said:

From what I hear, second hand, is that sad as it sounds, Premier and the other sales folks have been able to sell whatever the factory could get out the door. 

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Beechcraft has only sold 5 Bonanzas through the first 9 months of 2019.

Premier had an Ovation Ultra listed and unsold for months earlier this year. Also had one or two Acclaims in inventory for awhile. Point is, at least as late as August, Mooney was manufacturing and selling product to its dealers that no end-user had actually ordered. Supply was out-pacing demand.

Just seems like if there was a backlog of customers waiting for Mooney to fulfill their orders, we would have heard from at least some of those anxious customers here on MS. 

[RonM]

Very sad. This may all be true that Cirrus has kicked Mooney's butt. However, the Acclaim is a beautiful airplane. Personally I would take a new Acclaim over a new Cirrus. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by RonM
Typo

[GeeBee]

The three rules of marketing. PPP. Product, price, promotion. Failure on all three fronts. Beech failed for years on price, but stayed alive. Cessna has failed on product, but still manages to keep the 172  and 182 alive. Mooney, needed to amp the product, overpriced it and only let dealer do the heavy lift on promotion. You can sell freezers to Eskimos, it is just a matter of PPP.

I also find the CAPS argument interesting. Amsafe makes the "airbag seatbelt" retrofit for every Mooney and indeed most GA aircraft for a very modest price of 2500 dollars. Other than a CAPS, it represents the most bang for the buck safety retrofit you can buy. How many of you have purchased that system?

 

 

[Mooney217RN]

Earlier this year I commented on the marketing success of Cirrus Design.  While it is not built to the quality of the Mooney, Cirrus sells aircraft and gets pilots into planes at an impressive rate.

Cirrus is vertically integrated, and they've created a culture among their owners that keeps them coming back for more.  I have flown the SR-22 line, and I have a little more than 25 hours in them.  they're a great bird.  Are they comparable to a Mooney?  Not even close.  In fact, I smoked an SR-22GTS the other day by 40kts in level flight without even trying.  That said, Mooney failed to get the product out in front of the consumer, and I lay that blame squarely at their doorstep.  The product is fantastic, the pricing is really good when you look at the value & quality of the product, but the marketing has been horrible for many, many years.  

It goes to show you that you can manufacture a high quality product at a good value and fail because the market has no clue what you have to offer.  Relying on 3rd party sales reps who have no interest in the success of the product was the weak link in the supply chain.

 

[chriscalandro]

  On 11/16/2019 at 12:47 AM, pkofman said:

Order form on the website....

So just because I wanted to talk to someone and i was curious if anyone would respond I filled in the first steps new plane order form on the website.. I left my real email and phone number.  The form is for indicating interest in purchasing a new plane ( which by the way I would love ) but i was wondering if i would receive a call back from a human after the factory shutdown. ( remember ive owned a few Mooneys and love my Bravo)

The sad answer is "no follow up" on their end!!! Three days and counting!!!!

Looks like there is no interest in selling me a new plane!

All of you can determine what if anything that lack of response might mean to the longevity of the company 

If i ever get a response ill be sure to report back

Peter

 

 

 

 

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Did you not read the first post in this thread that stated the phone was off and nobody would be responding to requests?
 

are you really interested in a new airplane or are you just stirring the pit trying to get information?  I’m sure the people that ARE there are too busy to deal with your garbage fishing.  

[Seth]

  On 11/14/2019 at 6:29 PM, RogueOne said:

George,

I am a LONG time Mooneyspace guy.  Your failure my friend is in not considering your audience.  I don’t fly over mountains.  I don’t fly at night.  If friends don’t wish to fly.  O.K. By me.  Later.  Lol.  We are on completely different wavelengths.  You need to justify nada to me.  The exercise is a waste of your time as there is ZERO likelihood of my purchasing a Cirrus...EVER.  I am just a happy “new to me” owner of a MOONEY typing on MOONEYSPACE.  So again...NOT EVEN CLOSE by the only definition that matters.  MINE.

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Heads up, George is a very long term Mooney driver and now Cirrus driver.  Led AOPA Safety Foundation, Flew F-18’s in the NAVY, owned and M20F and M20S, now flies 767F’s for UPS.  He’s been a subject matter expert and speaker at Mooney Summit twice.  
 

George loves Mooney’s and is just giving his facts and point of view as we all are.

-Seth 

[aviatoreb]

Eps graphite v8 diesel.  400 hp on ~15gph and it can cruise setting on that.  So 265tas cruise mooney.  Cross continent range.

that and a auto land auto pilot.

ill take two please.