Greasing landings with long bodies

[FloridaMan]

I’ve seen a lot of Mooney pilots land by holding off the runway until the plane plops down, resulting in what looks like a hard landing. When I land my m20f and rocket, I tend to use a touch of rudder and back pressure in the flare and let off of both as I sink. The result is frequently a smooth landing as the loading of the wing shortens how much the plane floats and, at the same time, unloading it as the plane settles keeps it from accelerating and dropping hard onto the mains. Does this same technique work with the long bodies?

[carusoam]

DK would be the resource to invite to the conversation...

Going from short to LB... the weight seems to make a bit of a difference...

The speeds are about 15% higher...

Normal landings in an LB are usually full flap

With so much Flap drag, a touch of power may be kept in til short short final...

Overall the LB lands very much like the other Mooneys...

Fun near fact... the 15% higher speeds are sort of easy on the memory...  short body Mooneys use mph, LBs use Kias...

PP thoughts, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[ilovecornfields]

@donkaye had a good landing video that shows how to land (and how NOT to land) the long body. I think you can get the DVD on his website.

[MooneyMitch]

I used the same technique to land my former Ovation as I used in either the F or E model,  and my current D/C model, with one exception..... and that was keeping the nose a bit higher during flare.

Yes, the Ovation was longer and heavier than the above mentioned models, but once I adjusted for those aspects, landings were essentially the same (not always perfect, I admit)........smooth.

A stabilized approach and speed control are so important!

Yes, Don Kaye video is a recommended tool.

Edited October 28, 2019 by MooneyMitch
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[M20F-1968]

On 10/27/2019 at 6:11 PM, FloridaMan said:

I’ve seen a lot of Mooney pilots land by holding off the runway until the plane plops down, resulting in what looks like a hard landing. When I land my m20f and rocket, I tend to use a touch of rudder and back pressure in the flare and let off of both as I sink. The result is frequently a smooth landing as the loading of the wing shortens how much the plane floats and, at the same time, unloading it as the plane settles keeps it from accelerating and dropping hard onto the mains. Does this same technique work with the long bodies?

A touch of back pressure is a no brainer.  I can picture a touch of rudder, if countered by a touch of opposite rudder - because without both you would not be on centerline.  

I don't really like the idea of being cross controlled near the ground for any unnecessary reason.  But it seems what you are doing is adding drag so you can also carry a but more power without floating.

Some of my best landing have been done with speed brakes and have been done in windy, gusty, and crosswind conditions because I want and need to carry more power.  The wing feels heavier.  It seems you are doing the same thing with the controls.  

John Breda

[DAVIDWH]

Half flaps and speed brakes activated seem to pretty much negate bounced landings for me. That being said, sometimes the grease on the runway is elusive.

The rapid sink rate can be eliminated with a touch of power. still working on that. Sometimes, dead stick, sometimes a knob turn in the flare.

Additionally, I am at full up trim.

Don Kay's video technique works almost every time, I just am not comfortable maintaining 70 on final. Maybe some day.....

[FloridaMan]

The reason I ask is that I know there is the potential to stall the tail on the long bodies. The technique I use with the rudder will still track straight as it’s essentially a forward slip. At the extreme, it’s like a hockey stop, and I’ve only gone full-in like that when I had my engine failure — when fast approaching trees and houses, your risk profile changes. 

[Shadrach]

So many elaborate techniques...

I've heard if you blow your nose, clear your ears, open and close the cowl flaps five times before turning final and then say Bloody Mary three times crossing the threshold it will make for a smooth touchdown...

I have a tough time remembering all of that in the pattern so I cannot speak to its effectiveness.

What works for me in almost any airplane is holding the nose high with the mains as close to the ground as possible until the wing is finished or nearly finished flying while the tail continues to fly.    The closer I am to being on speed the less time it will take.  The more precise I am in holding hold the wheels just off the surface, the smoother the touchdown.  Not sure what a rudder input would accomplish other than holding center line in a crosswind.  

Would you guys be up for a group buy on a Good Landing Talisman?  I think I could get my local member of the psychic friends network to make them in batches of ten if I could get enough commitments from Mooney spacers.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Shadrach

[jaylw314]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

What works for me in almost any airplane is holding the nose high with the mains as close to the ground as possible until the wing is finished or nearly finished flying while the tail continues to fly.    The closer I am to being on speed the less time it will take.  The more precise I am in holding hold the wheels just off the surface, the smoother the touchdown.  Not sure what a rudder input would accomplish other than holding center line in a crosswind.  

+1.  It's hard to imagine that not working on any aircraft.  I think whatever technique we use to land in Mooney's of any type is the exact same technique for any other (nosegear) plane, we're just held to a higher standard by the airframe...

[Shadrach]

Just now, jaylw314 said:

+1.  It's hard to imagine that not working on any aircraft.  I think whatever technique we use to land in Mooney's of any type is the exact same technique for any other (nosegear) plane, we're just held to a higher standard by the airframe...

So that's +1 for the Talisman group buy?  You should be good for the standard size...the long body version is $10 more but guaranteed to prevent tail strikes and tail stalls. Depending on who you talk to, you either have to be careful to keep the tail from scraping or be careful to keep it from stalling and uncontrollably dropping the nose.  This will cover both of those seemingly contradictory tendencies for just one low price.

[MooneyMitch]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

So that's +1 for the Talisman group buy?  You should be good for the standard size...the long body version is $10 more but guaranteed to prevent tail strikes and tail stalls. Depending on who you talk to, you either have to be careful to keep the tail from scraping or be careful to keep it from stalling and uncontrollably dropping the nose.  This will cover both of those seemingly contradictory tendencies for just one low price.

  

[Skates97]

For me the best landing practice is to go up and do a bunch of slow flight in landing configuration. Whenever I do that my subsequent landings are much improved (until I forget what I've done and need a refresher).

[MooneyMitch]

You can make great landings most of the time.  And you can make great landings some of the time, but you can't make great landings all of the time................nyuck, nyuck, nyuck ! 

[Shadrach]

3 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

For me the best landing practice is to go up and do a bunch of slow flight in landing configuration. Whenever I do that my subsequent landings are much improved (until I forget what I've done and need a refresher).

[Davidv]

I find there is no "secret" and I went from a 172 to a long body. At first, I would get the occasional bounced landing because I was overly concerned about being too slow on final so I would carry just a little too much speed on short final on probably what was a too shallow of a profile.   After getting a little bit of time in the plane (and speaking with @donkaye) I realized that making slower approaches at steeper descent profiles on short final would give me the safety and speed I need to flare just off the runway and hold a nose high attitude until touchdown.  (Knock on wood), I'm able to settle it down pretty gently most of the time. 

In my limited experience, the airplane gives you multiple clues that it's going too slow before you put yourself into a dangerous situation. 

But above all else, to quote @Shadrach, wheelies.  

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

So many elaborate techniques...

I've heard if you blow your nose, clear your ears, open and close the cowl flaps five times before turning final and then say Bloody Mary three times crossing the threshold it will make for a smooth touchdown...

I have a tough time remembering all of that in the pattern so I cannot speak to its effectiveness.

What works for me in almost any airplane is holding the nose high with the mains as close to the ground as possible until the wing is finished or nearly finished flying while the tail continues to fly.    The closer I am to being on speed the less time it will take.  The more precise I am in holding hold the wheels just off the surface, the smoother the touchdown.  Not sure what a rudder input would accomplish other than holding center line in a crosswind.  

Would you guys be up for a group buy on a Good Landing Talisman?  I think I could get my local member of the psychic friends network to make them in batches of ten if I could get enough commitments from Mooney spacers.

Yep. It really isn't any different than an other airplane. Get low, flare, and hold the attitude in a position where you keep the nosewheel clear of the ground. What is different is the attitude which will accomplish that, and that varies from make/model to make/model. In the long body it's just higher than other Mooneys.

[PT20J]

It’s not that hard. Rudder keeps the nose aligned. Aileron counteracts sideways drift.  Fly a constant descent angle at 1.3 Vso controlling airspeed with pitch and descent rate with power. Round out close to the runway and reduce power to idle and hold it off until the mains touch. 

The Mooney wing is close to the ground and the flap span is large which accentuates ground effect. The landing gear is stiff which exaggerates any firmness in the touchdown. The main gear geometry puts the wheels a little farther aft of the CG than some airplanes. When you touch down, the moment arm to the tail shortens as the pivot point shifts from the CG to the wheels which causes a nose down pitching moment. All airplanes have a few quirks. But the basic technique is the same. 

Skip

[Shadrach]

18 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Yep. It really isn't any different than an other airplane. Get low, flare, and hold the attitude in a position where you keep the nosewheel clear of the ground. What is different is the attitude which will accomplish that, and that varies from make/model to make/model. In the long body it's just higher than other Mooneys.

Agree but also agree with @jaylw314 that the wing and its proximity to the ground hold the pilot to a higher standard regarding speed control. With a long enough runway every landing should be a greaser (unless it’s gusty or hot, or gusty and hot, or I’ve not had any coffee or...). That being said, many years ago a pilot at my home drome made 3 attempts to get his new to him F model down in 5500’. His third and last attempt resulted in a tire smoking departure off the end of the runway and into the ditch. My guess is if he were queried during those approaches, he would have stated that his new to him F model did not land like any other airplane he’d flown.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Shadrach

[midlifeflyer]

52 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Agree but also agree with @jaylw314 that the wing and it’s proximity to the ground hold the pilot to a higher standard regarding speed control.

I definitely agree that proper airspeed control is a key to good and consistent landings. In any airplane,

[Shadrach]

14 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I definitely agree that proper airspeed control is a key to good and consistent landings. In any airplane,

I’ve repeatedly read Bonanza pilots posts on BT suggesting that their airplanes make them look like heroes on landings even when 10-15kts fast. Our local flight school is teaching students to hold 80KIAS until short final in C172s (they must have seen the video). That’s nearly 2 x MGW Vso, yet they still get them down easily on the “short” runway (3600’). It’s true that basic technique is the same for most GA planes. However there is NFW that any Mooney would let you get away with that kind of slop and yield anything that resembled a normal landing. I have seen more Mooneys in the weeds off the departure end of a runway than any other make.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Shadrach

[PT20J]

7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Agree but also agree with @jaylw314 that the wing and its proximity to the ground hold the pilot to a higher standard regarding speed control. With a long enough runway every landing should be a greaser (unless it’s gusty or hot, or gusty and hot, or I’ve not had any coffee or...). That being said, many years ago a pilot at my home drome made 3 attempts to get his new to him F model down in 5500’. His third and last attempt resulted in a tire smoking departure off the end of the runway and into the ditch. My guess is if he were queried during those approaches, he would have stated that his new to him F model did not land like any other airplane he’d flown.

 

6 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I definitely agree that proper airspeed control is a key to good and consistent landings. In any airplane,

I agree with both these comments. The greater sensitivity to ground effect accounts for the challenge in Mooney landings. My original point was that there is nothing about a Mooney that requires special techniques. But, as pointed out in these two posts, airspeed control is critical to good landings.

 

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I repeatedly read Bonanza pilots on BT say that their airplanes make them look like heroes on landing even when 10-15kts fast. Our local flight school is teaching students to hold 80KIAS until short final in C172s (they must have seen the video). That’s nearly 2 x MGW Vso, yet they still get them down easily on the “short” runway (3600’). It’s true that basic technique is the same for most GA planes. However there is NFW that any Mooney would let you get away with that kind of slop and yield anything that resembled a normal landing. I have seen more Mooneys in the weeds off the departure end of a runway than any other make.

Well, Bonanzas are the easiest airplanes in the world to land. Very forgiving with hefty landing gear which absorbs a lot. I told a friend that they were easy and one has to work hard to ecreu up a landing. He said, "oh sure," so I put him in the left seat of one and proved it to him. He couldn't believe it.

And yes, Mooneys are less forgiving of slop than some, perhaps even most, definitely not all, other light GA aircraft. 

I'm not sure what we are arguing about. We seem to be in violent agreement about substance. Perhaps you are just more religious about Mooneys than I. 

[midlifeflyer]

31 minutes ago, PT20J said:

 

I agree with both these comments. The greater sensitivity to ground effect accounts for the challenge in Mooney landings. My original point was that there is nothing about a Mooney that requires special techniques. But, as pointed out in these two posts, airspeed control is critical to good landings.

 

And I agree with your point. The typical transitioning pilot has heard so much about how special they are, how difficult they are, and how special a pilot they will be if they ever manage to learn it, so the first thing I do is make your point.

Further sacrilege: I was transitioning someone from a mid-body into a long body. First Gen Ovation. He had a lot of trouble with the landing attitude because it is so much higher and, with the high panel, seems even higher. Finally I asked him if he ever flew Cessnas. Of course he had. So I told him to land it like a 172. It worked  

[ilovecornfields]

9 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

And I agree with your point. The typical transitioning pilot has heard so much about how special they are, how difficult they are, and how special a pilot they will be if they ever manage to learn it, so the first thing I do is make your point.

Further sacrilege: I was transitioning someone from a mid-body into a long body. First Gen Ovation. He had a lot of trouble with the landing attitude because it is so much higher and, with the high panel, seems even higher. Finally I asked him if he ever flew Cessnas. Of course he had. So I told him to land it like a 172. It worked  

So true! I used to be horrible at landing the 172. After almost 400 hours in the Ovation I can grease the 172 on almost every time now. My instructor asked me to do a soft field landing and after we landed he was silent, then he said “Wow. That was really soft.”

[jaylw314]

51 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I'm not sure what we are arguing about. We seem to be in violent agreement about substance. Perhaps you are just more religious about Mooneys than I. 

I cracked up reading that