Dramatic Rise in Aeroshell Price !

[N201MKTurbo]

Anybody that flys frequently can put just about anything in their engine. If you fly infrequently, the anti-corrosion package is a lot more important.

[PT20J]

On 7/28/2019 at 11:10 AM, jetdriven said:

I’m only seeing TPP, triphenyl phosphate. It’s the antiscuff additive. It actually causes corrosion in the prescense of water vapor. That’s how it has the antiscuff properties, it forms a thin layer on the cam and lifters after shutdown. Read some about this chemical. 
I don’t see any anti-corrosion chemicals added. 

Tricresyl Phosphate (TCP), according to the bottle. According to Wikipedia, it's hydrophobic.

[jetdriven]

TCP was phased out. Now it’s TPP. 

[PT20J]

7 hours ago, jetdriven said:

TCP was phased out. Now it’s TPP. 

Maybe, but the latest SDS I could find dated 7/5/17 lists the ingredient as Tris(methylphenyl) Phosphate, which I believe is TCP C₂₁H₂₁O₄P (Tricresyl phosphate).

08-05600msds.pdf

Edited September 4, 2019 by PT20J
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[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

Maybe, but the latest SDS I could find dated 7/5/17 lists the ingredient as Tris(methylphenyl) Phosphate, which I believe is TCP C₂₁H₂₁O₄P (Tricresyl phosphate).

08-05600msds.pdf 34.01 kB · 1 download

 

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

 

Yes, I believe that's what I said. This is straining my organic chemistry - never my favorite subject; that's why I went into electrical engineering 

But, according to PubChem (pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov), tris(methylphenyl) phosphate and tricresyl phosphate are both the same chemical, TCP, C₂₁H₂₁O₄P. Triphenyl phosphate is C₁₈H₁₅O₄P.

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[jetdriven]

5 hours ago, PT20J said:

But, according to PubChem (pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov), tris(methylphenyl) phosphate and tricresyl phosphate are both the same chemical, TCP, C₂₁H₂₁O₄P. Triphenyl phosphate is C₁₈H₁₅O₄P.

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Similar formulas, but not the same chemical.  For example, water is H2O and hydrogen peroxide is H2O2. 

[PT20J]

6 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Similar formulas, but not the same chemical.  For example, water is H2O and hydrogen peroxide is H2O2. 

I'm confused by your example. Water and hydrogen peroxide do not have the same formula and are quite different chemicals.

tris(methylphenyl) phosphate and tricresyl phosphate have identical formulas - they are just two names for the same thing, TCP

Triphenyl phosphate, TPhP, is a different chemical with a different formula.

According to the most recent SDS I can find, LW-16702 is TCP.

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[Jeph357]

On 7/26/2019 at 3:22 PM, buddy said:

I just bought 2 6-packs and I think it came to $87. I don’t know why they gave up on a case of 12 though.

When I went to spruce a couple of months ago they were out of cases and told me they would now be 6packs. I inquired as to Why? Was told that Shell's largest volume buyer (Wal-mart)

Was no longer going to buy cases of 12 only cases of 6, therefore to cut back on package manufacturing they would be only offering  cases of 6.  

Also BTW price is going up for repackaging .... This is what I was told by employee @ spruce. 

[jetdriven]

6 hours ago, PT20J said:

 

Skip:

I can’t see how these two formulas are the same.  The carbon and hydrogen numbers are different.  

 

also, W100+ MSDS is Triphenyl Phosphate.  http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/ProductDocs/AeroShell_Oil_W100_Plus_MSDS.pdf

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by jetdriven

[jaylw314]

11 hours ago, PT20J said:

I'm confused by your example. Water and hydrogen peroxide do not have the same formula and are quite different chemicals.

tris(methylphenyl) phosphate and tricresyl phosphate have identical formulas - they are just two names for the same thing, TCP

Triphenyl phosphate, TPhP, is a different chemical with a different formula.

According to the most recent SDS I can find, LW-16702 is TCP.

Skip

Cresols are simply phenols with an additional methyl group, so "methylphenyl" is a pretty descriptive alternative to "cresyl."

TCP then would be a phosphate core with three methylphenol groups attached by esterfication

TPP would be the same thing but with three phenol groups instead of three methylphenol groups.

Not an expert on either, but just by looking at the diagrams, I would imagine it is weakly amphiphilic, with hydrophobic parts and a weakly hydrophilic part, which would make it detergent-like.  That means it could suspend water droplets in an oil solution (or oil droplets in a water solution).

 

[jetdriven]

Interestingly the sky geek Lycoming additive msds shows TPP.  
https://www.skygeek.com/telyenoilad6.html

 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by jetdriven

[jaylw314]

5 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Interestingly the sky geek Lycoming additive msds shows TPP.  
https://www.skygeek.com/telyenoilad6.html

 

 

And if you blow up the picture of the Lycoming bottle on Skygeek, it does seem to say "contains Triphenyl Phosphate"

[PT20J]

Byron, 

Before everyone thinks we are both nuts -- I only brought this up because I was considering the new Phillips AW 20W-50 which is marketed as containing LW-16702. I was pretty sure LW-16702 was TCP. Then I saw your post that LW-16702 changed to TPP.  So, I looked it up. In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter. After reading about these chemicals, I'm don't think I want any of them near me. FWIW, I used to own a '78 J with a IO-360-A3B6D and I used AS 100W and added LW-16702 at each oil change. I flew about 100 hrs/year and was based in San Jose CA (which is not particularly humid). The cam lasted to about 1600 hrs. In my current '94J  the original IO-360-A3B6D went about 1100 hrs (based mostly in Chicago and Dallas by the two previous owners) before the cam spalled. It had always been run with AS 15W50 containing LW-16702. So, I'm not particularly convinced that the stuff protects the camshaft. I'm sure we are both happier to have A3B6's with roller tappets.

I find it interesting that it is difficult to understand what they put in this stuff.  I found a SDS that says it's TCP; you found one that says it's TPP. I don't really care which of us is correct - I just want to know what's in it. Curiosity has caused me to spend more time on this than warranted, but...

Phillips' website doesn't have a SDS for AW oil. 

Shell's website lists the current SDS (attached) that shows it contains "alkylated phenol ester", whatever that is.

Lycoming LW-16702 is packaged for Lycoming by Andpak, Inc. I requested the SDS (attached) and it says "Kerosine - unspecified - distillites (petroleum) hydrotreated light." But down towards the end it lists: Proper Shipping Name: TRICRESYL PHOSPHATE.

So, what's in this stuff? 

Cheers,

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GSAP_msds_01660936.PDF

LYCOMING LW-16702 ENGINE OIL ADDITIVE.pdf

 

[PT20J]

18 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Interestingly the sky geek Lycoming additive msds shows TPP.  
https://www.skygeek.com/telyenoilad6.html

 

 

It does look like the composition changed over the years so you need to look at the dates on the SDS's. I believe the one I posted first for LW-16702 is a later date than the one on SkyGeek. I just posted the most current SDS for the Lycoming additive.

[jetdriven]

Yes i agree, can’t be sure which it is,I don’t think it helps cam life and I wouldn’t want it in my engine or around me. 

[kris_adams]

Don't have my bill in front of me but at Spruce Georgia yesterday, each 6 pack IIRC was $50.

But if you buy it 55 gallons at a time you can get it down to $7.48/qt lol

[jaylw314]

All the various named chemicals are very similar in terms of structure.  Here's TPP

the three phenylgroups can have some extra carbons tacked on to make TCP

or Tri-(tert-butylphenyl) phosphate

So they're all pretty close cousins structurally.  Some interesting reading 

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19870017597.pdf

It seems as far as we know that the various compounds break down in the presence of pressure, shear, water or oxygen and the phosphate attaches itself to any iron oxides on surface to become iron phosphates.  Apparently, there are a whole slew of organic phosphates that are used as antiwear additives, so there may not be much theoretical difference between the various types

 

[EricJ]

18 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Similar formulas, but not the same chemical.  For example, water is H2O and hydrogen peroxide is H2O2. 

Two chemists sit down in a restaurant.   The server comes and the first one says, "I'll have some H20!"   The second one says, "I'll have some H20, too!"

The second chemist died.

 

[ilovecornfields]

6 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Two chemists sit down in a restaurant.   The server comes and the first one says, "I'll have some H20!"   The second one says, "I'll have some H20, too!"

The second chemist died.

 

You mean H2O2...

Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. I only ruin punchlines periodically.

How can you tell a chemist from a plumber? Ask them to say “unionized.”

[jaylw314]

31 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Two chemists sit down in a restaurant.   The server comes and the first one says, "I'll have some H20!"   The second one says, "I'll have some H20, too!"

The second chemist died.

 

That's a good one 

[PT20J]

Beating a dead horse, but last week I requested a SDS from Phillips and I finally got it. Phillips Victory AW oil uses triphenyl phosphate.

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831793.pdf