FIKI or A/C on Acclaim Type S

[gsxrpilot]

Have you thought of spending the money to air-condition the hangar instead of the airplane? 

I hate the though of spending good money to equip an airplane for more comfortable ground operations. It's not meant to be on the ground.

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Have you thought of spending the money to air-condition the hangar instead of the airplane? 

I hate the though of spending good money to equip an airplane for more comfortable ground operations. It's not meant to be on the ground.

Oh boy I am in North Carolina today.  It’s hot on the ground. 

[M20F]

34 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Oh boy I am in North Carolina today.  It’s hot on the ground. 

Try 09J, but I am at the beach instead. 

[Firehawk335]

Thanks for the options guys but I was only looking for direct opinions on FIKI vs A/C.  My schedule and locations don’t allow for other, and I have an Arctic Air cooler and I’m not impressed with that option.

Anyway, I’m about to pull the trigger on a 305 Rocket with TKS and update the panel.  About 200k less than an Acclaim.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Firehawk335 said:

Anyway, I’m about to pull the trigger on a 305 Rocket with TKS and update the panel.  About 200k less than an Acclaim.

AAA has one coming to the market soon with a couple aspen displays and some GNS hardware. Might want to give them a call before you jump and take a peek. 

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, Firehawk335 said:

Thanks for the options guys but I was only looking for direct opinions on FIKI vs A/C.  My schedule and locations don’t allow for other, and I have an Arctic Air cooler and I’m not impressed with that option.

Anyway, I’m about to pull the trigger on a 305 Rocket with TKS and update the panel.  About 200k less than an Acclaim.

Out of thousands of MSers a dozen(?) may have A/C installed... Where they live/fly heavily weighs on their decision...

Hundreds may have an Icebox type cooler... they really work and they are not an investment...

 

TKS systems come in two flavors FIKI and non-FIKI...

Anyone with an IR that flys year round is familiar with the value proposition...

Winter in the NE... Anti-ice is a great benefit... Great Lakes related...  ever send someone out to warm the car?  Or start the car at lunch time, so it will start later in the evening?

Summer in TX to FL... A/C is a great benefit... Have you counted days on the ground over 100°F in a row?...ever send somebody out to cool the car by running the A/C?

 

The decision process to decide A/C vs.. FIKI.... May look like this.

• Planes don’t fall out of the sky because the pilot is sweaty...
• Planes can fall out of the sky with extreme build up of ice on wings and props...

Have you ever been sweaty in a plane?

Have you ever been sweaty with a wing load of ice?

Do you only fly in the summer?

Do you only fly in the winter?

 

Have you owned a plane before?

How long does it take for you to take the plane out of the hangar, run-up, and depart? (Pre-flight is done indoors out of the sun)

For Some MSers... this is a ten minute ordeal... for others the Taxi out to the run-up area is 15 minutes...

 

So... looking for somebody that is in a position similar to yours... and give valid advice to help you out... seems like a tiny group...

You may find people East of large bodies of water in cold climes really love their anti-ice equipment...

The more serious The pilot is about their flying... the easier this decision becomes... the maintenance on the sub-systems is just another part of the process...

The more casual The pilot is about their flying... the more they can defer a flight for another more comfortable day... or get going a bit earlier to avoid the heat of the day...

So...

pick the engine you want to fly... NA, TC, TN’d

pick the volume of the plane that fits best... SB, MB, LB...

Pick the panel that supports your type of flying... Light IFR, or latest WAAS based IFR...

 

then figure out what makes you sweat more... heat or ice?

 

I would bet you have decided upon what makes the most sense for you already... 

Now to firm up the budget...

• 100 AMU
• 200 AMU
• 300 AMU
• more?

 

Count me in the more casual, commonly deferring flights... camp.

Weather planning has really improved over the last five years.  Much more accurate at avoiding crummy weather challenges...

My biggest challenge was planning to be home Monday morning to go to work...  

Best regards,

-a-

 

[exM20K]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Have you thought of spending the money to air-condition the hangar instead of the airplane? 

I hate the though of spending good money to equip an airplane for more comfortable ground operations. It's not meant to be on the ground.

Totally agree.  A well-insulated hangar, with a massive slab, will stay cool pretty well up here in Chicagoland.  Mine is 40x50, stick-built w/ 2x6, R-something fiberglass on the sidewalls, blown cellulose in the attic, rigid foam panels on the Hydro-swing door, which makes a very tight seal, and an insulated foundation.

It costs pennies to heat to 50* in the winter, and in the summer, even after a three week string of very hot weather, it's still holding low 70's.  I'm just careful about when I open the big door and avoid dumping hot, humid air inside if at all possible.

B-Kool is sufficient to handle taxi, takeoff, approach, and landing.  YMMV.

-dan

[exM20K]

I visited with Kelly Aerospace last OSH, and they have an Ovation with their A/C unit installed. Dunno what the status of the STC is, but they list a weight of 49 pounds for their system.  That is pretty light if they can do it for a long body Mooney.  The unit sits in th hat shelf, which wouldn’t meaningfully change  my baggage capacity.

 

http://www.kellyaerospace.com/thermacool-aircraft-air-conditioning.html

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, Firehawk335 said:

Thanks for the options guys but I was only looking for direct opinions on FIKI vs A/C.  My schedule and locations don’t allow for other, and I have an Arctic Air cooler and I’m not impressed with that option.

Anyway, I’m about to pull the trigger on a 305 Rocket with TKS and update the panel.  About 200k less than an Acclaim.

That’s what I have - love it!  Please post pictures when!

[aviatoreb]

29 minutes ago, exM20K said:

I visited with Kelly Aerospace last OSH, and they have an Ovation with their A/C unit installed. Dunno what the status of the STC is, but they list a weight of 49 pounds for their system.  That is pretty light if they can do it for a long body Mooney.  The unit sits in th hat shelf, which wouldn’t meaningfully change  my baggage capacity.

 

http://www.kellyaerospace.com/thermacool-aircraft-air-conditioning.html

That’s a fantastic idea!!!  How much?

ideally it would have battery for 10min worth of taxi time too.  Boy I would loved that thing today.

or... even a battery option like a lead acid battery that you charge at home and plug in for 15 min of operation.

airplanes are pretty unique in that we only need it for 10-15 min.

but we do need that 10-15k btu

[rbridges]

You sound like you depend on your plane.  I'd go with fiki. I live in Georgia, and I've had to cancel some IFR flights because of freezing temps.  I've flown in an sr22 with AC and it definitely makes waiting in the plane more tolerable, but I've never cancelled a flight in my mooney because I was too hot. 

[MIm20c]

Not to go off topic but I thought the aircraft ice coolers all had a separate compartment for the ice so they didn’t turn into a swamp cooler.  However, on the arctic air version it looks like it can be run with and without the pump on. Are they evaporative coolers or heat exchanger coolers?

[carusoam]

The good ice cooler systems use a heat exchanger and fan system to keep from blowing water into the cabin...

Best regards,

-a-

[Firehawk335]

Yes, the plane has become a vital part of my business.  I’m gone from home base 3 weeks a month.  The extra speed will give me a few more hours at home each month.  I have about 1000 hours in the M20J, it has been a great bird and I’m going to keep it for the time being until I prove the Rocket will fit the mission better.

 

The Arctic Air blows cool air, but never gets the cabin cool.  It just keeps it tolerable.  It functions as a swamp cooler and has an additional heat exchanger that the ice cold water is pumped through.  (Fan and water pump each have their own switch) With the J model anything over 10,000ft is not real practical as you start losing speed, climb, etc.  Below 10k and you have to run the Arctic Air the whole trip, keeps it tolerable but not cold.  Having to source ice prior to the flight is a pain.  (I’m not at home base most of the time)  Note that block ice lasts longer.  It also takes up most of the baggage area so I find I fly without it most of the time.

[aviatoreb]

5 hours ago, Firehawk335 said:

Thanks for the options guys but I was only looking for direct opinions on FIKI vs A/C.  My schedule and locations don’t allow for other, and I have an Arctic Air cooler and I’m not impressed with that option.

Anyway, I’m about to pull the trigger on a 305 Rocket with TKS and update the panel.  About 200k less than an Acclaim.

That’s what I have - love it!  Please post pictures when!

[aviatoreb]

I wonder why FBOs don’t offer ground cooling.  Some kind of massive ground ac unit installed on a tug that has big hoses to point into the cabin for pre cooling.

Edited July 14, 2019 by aviatoreb

[kpaul]

49 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I wonder why FBOs don’t offer ground cooling.  Some kind of massive ground ac unit installed on a tug that has big hoses to point into the caving for pre cooling.

Because the guys willing to spend the money to rent one at an FBO already fly planes with either electric AC and will rent a GPU or have a APU to run and cool the plane.

The military has big AC carts, they get uses to cool avionics more so than people.

I wish I took a picture down in Gulfport MS.  The helicopter air ambulance down there had a window mount AC with  some ducts attached to keep the cabin cool while they were sitting alert.  It was a true CB solution and it was plugged into the FBOs outlets.   

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, kpaul said:

Because the guys willing to spend the money to rent one at an FBO already fly planes with either electric AC and will rent a GPU or have a APU to run and cool the plane.

The military has big AC carts, they get uses to cool avionics more so than people.

I wish I took a picture down in Gulfport MS.  The helicopter air ambulance down there had a window mount AC with  some ducts attached to keep the cabin cool while they were sitting alert.  It was a true CB solution and it was plugged into the FBOs outlets.   

Nice

I’ve looked at those hose venting ac units for small room cooling at Walmart - the small ones - I wonder if one of those together with a smaller Honda generator would be useful for pre cooling the cabin on the road on the ground (before startup).

[aggiepilot04]

I transitioned from a J to the Type S almost 3 years ago.  TLDR: The most restricting factor to my general mission profile is weight.  When it's just me or 1 passenger, it's icing.  If weight is not a factor for you, go FIKI.  A/C is a waste of useful load and money (in my opinion).

Here's the long story.  I've been in Seattle for about a year, but was in Austin before that.  Texas is hell in the summer, and taxiing/climbing in the J was no fun.  I have a really hard time getting my passengers out of the door in the morning, so we generally find ourselves flying in the heat of the day.  In the Acclaim, it's a much smaller issue as long as you keep it hangared until the last possible moment.  I always had back seat passengers strap in while still in the shade, then drag it out, then jump in and go.  I get 2-3x the climb in the Acclaim than I got in the J, so the heat is much less bothersome.  It's harder when you're away from home and on the ramp, but a temporary ice cooler solution may be a good option for that.  I haven't found that necessary, but I'd want the option to shed the weight if needed.

Ice-wise, I encountered ice in the J maybe once in 8 years or so.  Obviously ice is more of an issue in the PNW, but it's seemingly a factor on most flights.  I'm probably overly conservative, but I spend a lot of time mulling over the bases, tops, and freezing levels vs. terrain.  I want to make sure that I have an out...either up, down, or elsewhere, and my altitude is planned accordingly, and the mountains in the area further complicate the matter.  While all of this a smaller issue down south, you're going to be flying higher and faster in the Acclaim (and probably north-er ).  Even if you plan around ice (which I probably would even if I had TKS, but I'd like to hear others' opinions on this), you're going to hit unexpected encounters...and equipment gives you another out.  I like to fly high...especially when I'm by myself, but I've run into unexpected ice more times than I'd like to admit.

Either way, I couldn't more strongly recommend the jump from the J to the TN.  You won't be able to hide the smile on the first 20 flights or so.  Good luck.

[Ftlausa]

On 7/16/2019 at 5:38 AM, aggiepilot04 said:

 A/C is a waste of useful load and money (in my opinion).

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I often have to fly in my work uniform (a suit) in South Florida, and that A/C is worth every penny and every pound in my opinion.  I also fly out of busy airports, and I can be waiting on the ground for up to 20 minutes.  That is an eternity in 90s weather and high humidity. 

[aggiepilot04]

1 hour ago, Ftlausa said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I often have to fly in my work uniform (a suit) in South Florida, and that A/C is worth every penny and every pound in my opinion.  I also fly out of busy airports, and I can be waiting on the ground for up to 20 minutes.  That is an eternity in 90s weather and high humidity. 

That is fair, but I would sweat out a suit long before getting in the airplane in Texas.  I've changed into a suit at the destination FBO on multiple occasions, but that's not my typical use case.  I can see how that would be a pain if you're flying in a suit frequently.  Personally, I would still want to shed the weight when necessary.