Requesting a special VFR

[NotarPilot]

Recently I was flying to my home drome one night (Class D airspace with operating tower) when the ceiling was reported 1200 overcast on the ATIS. I call up the tower and request a SVFR to land and she’s replies, with a puzzled tone in her voice, that the airport is VFR with a 1200’ ceiling.  I think to myself for a very brief moment that perhaps I’m in the wrong here so I just requested to land and she gave a normal clearance to land.  

My question is, shouldn’t that require a SVFR clearance being that I cannot maintain 500 below the clouds while remaining at least 1000 above the highest obstacle until landing?  Am I missing something here?

[Shadrach]

(c) Except as provided in §91.157, no person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet.

You’re misunderstanding pattern altitude as regulatory, it’s not.  In the controller’s eyes the field was VFR.  Your ability to maintain cloud clearances is not her problem, it’s yours. The FAR/AIM suggests VFR pilots modify pattern altitude to maintain cloud clearances. 

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Shadrach

[NotarPilot]

48 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Your ability to maintain cloud clearances is not her problem, it’s yours.

 

This is the afterthought that came to my mind. I should have still asked for a SVFR clearance due to the ceiling.  I don’t think modifying my pattern altitude at 4 miles out to 700 AGL is sound to qualifies as the “Except when necessary for takeoff and landing..” portion of 91.119.  The way I interpret that is that you can descend below 1000’ AGL around 1.5 to 2 miles from the airport, based on speed and approach angle.  Being at 700 AGL 4 miles out doesn’t seem “necessary.” Maybe it is but I don’t want to be the test case with my FSDO.being that I make my living on my ticket.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

Recently I was flying to my home drome one night (Class D airspace with operating tower) when the ceiling was reported 1200 overcast on the ATIS. I call up the tower and request a SVFR to land and she’s replies, with a puzzled tone in her voice, that the airport is VFR with a 1200’ ceiling.  I think to myself for a very brief moment that perhaps I’m in the wrong here so I just requested to land and she gave a normal clearance to land.  

My question is, shouldn’t that require a SVFR clearance being that I cannot maintain 500 below the clouds while remaining at least 1000 above the highest obstacle until landing?  Am I missing something here?

I don't think you're in the wrong to ask for SVFR.  After all, the only time you can't ask for SVFR is when the field is IFR (okay, I suppose you can still ask but you'll never get it).  Whether they agree to hold all IFR approaches and give it to you is another story...

I think perhaps she did the Jedi-mind-trick on you instead of saying she was unwilling to give you an SVFR clearance. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by jaylw314

[amillet]

KCLM is reporting 900 foot ceiling. It has an instrument approach (Class E).  Field is IFR.  VFR takeoffs prohibited. Whidby approach approves Special VFR clearance so I can legally depart and return to my home base W28 15 miles away.

[skydvrboy]

I made that same mistake going into Madison, WI and got the same answer, apparently with the same confused tone. I just replied, “Uh, guess I’ll come in VFR then.” That made me look up what SVFR really means and when to use it. Basically, the field has to be below VFR minimums.

For instance, when I was about, 5 minutes late getting out on morning, the cloud base was 900’ broken, but the edge was only a few miles away. Skies were clear the rest of the way. Called up and requested SVFR and was on my way.

[gsxrpilot]

Yeah I've requested and gotten SVFR clearance a couple of times. And both times the field was IFR. If the field is VFR there's no point.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

  I don’t think modifying my pattern altitude at 4 miles out to 700 AGL is sound to qualifies as the “Except when necessary for takeoff and landing..” portion of 91.119.  The way I interpret that is that you can descend below 1000’ AGL around 1.5 to 2 miles from the airport, based on speed and approach angle.  Being at 700 AGL 4 miles out doesn’t seem “necessary.” Maybe it is but I don’t want to be the test case with my FSDO.

Pretty sure you’d not be the person to test it, but your point is well taken. Take a look at the circling minimums at airports for aircraft approach category C and D. Under the new TERPS it is entirely legal for a transport category aircraft to be maneuvering at 500agl within a 4nm radius of an airport in limited (1.5SM) visibility (old TERPS had tighter radii, which was worse). Perhaps a FSDO might frown upon whatever VFR weather adventure you’re engaged in but being 4NM at 700AGL inbound for landing does not technically violate 91.119 as there are approaches that will yield those altitudes and distances. It does not make those approaches a good idea, but they exist and are legal.

[jaylw314]

21 hours ago, amillet said:

KCLM is reporting 900 foot ceiling. It has an instrument approach (Class E).  Field is IFR.  VFR takeoffs prohibited. Whidby approach approves Special VFR clearance so I can legally depart and return to my home base W28 15 miles away.

You guys are right, I had that backwards.   I was confusing VFR with being able to remain clear of clouds (and 1 mi visibility)

I think I Jedi mind-tricked myself 

Edited May 11, 2019 by jaylw314

[Pete M]

Call aproach and get a pop up ifr clearance next time. They provide seperation, no cloud clearance legalities and you won't confuse the controllers

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

Call aproach and get a pop up ifr clearance next time. They provide seperation, no cloud clearance legalities and you won't confuse the controllers

That doesn't work if:

• You aren't instrument rated
• You are rated but aren't current
• Your destination is uncontrolled with no approaches, but is inside the Class B / C / D veil

This is when Special VFR is a godsend!

[gsxrpilot]

What @Hank said... and when you're just trying to get out of a controlled field but don't have a specific destination in mind. It's too easy just to ask for SVFR and launch.

[Pete M]

11 hours ago, Hank said:

That doesn't work if:

• You aren't instrument rated
• You are rated but aren't current
• Your destination is uncontrolled with no approaches, but is inside the Class B / C / D veil

This is when Special VFR is a godsend!

Right, but that wasn't your situation, was it? You said you made a living with your ticket so I assumed, maybe uncorrectly, that you were qualified and current. You referenced the tower controller, right? Some class D's have no radar and depend on sight. I believe those locations are generally listed as no svfr. You were right to assume that you were in both legal and safety jeapordy as relates to busting cloud clearances. A pop up alleviates that. Is it the right answer all the time? Of course not but we're paid to use our judgement and find the safest solutions to aviations little dilemmas. Not saying you didnt choose the best option for your sit, I wasnt there,  just reminding you of the option. As you stated, You're required to maitain a safe alt so as to land safely in case of power failure. The controller put you in legal jeapordy when she denied. They become masters at shifting liability. I deal with it all the time at stuart. That pop up is a get out of jail free card and has the added benifit of providing seperation. Our area has a shit ton of biz jet traffic. We dont bust cc around the local airports. The chance of ending up with the pointy end of a lear up our tail pipes is too graet.

[Pete M]

Right, but he was in bound. You can get a clearance to a fix and loiter. We do it all the time for training.

[Shadrach]

10 hours ago, Pete M said:

Right, but that wasn't your situation, was it? You said you made a living with your ticket so I assumed, maybe uncorrectly, that you were qualified and current. You referenced the tower controller, right? Some class D's have no radar and depend on sight. I believe those locations are generally listed as no svfr. You were right to assume that you were in both legal and safety jeapordy as relates to busting cloud clearances. A pop up alleviates that. Is it the right answer all the time? Of course not but we're paid to use our judgement and find the safest solutions to aviations little dilemmas. Not saying you didnt choose the best option for your sit, I wasnt there,  just reminding you of the option. As you stated, You're required to maitain a safe alt so as to land safely in case of power failure. The controller put you in legal jeapordy when she denied. They become masters at shifting liability. I deal with it all the time at stuart. That pop up is a get out of jail free card and has the added benifit of providing seperation. Our area has a shit ton of biz jet traffic. We dont bust cc around the local airports. The chance of ending up with the pointy end of a lear up our tail pipes is too graet.

Hank wasn’t the OP, @NotarPilot was. My sense if that he’s not IRed yet.

[Jeff_S]

Did anyone mention here that 1,000ft AGL is typically Class G and the instructions are simply 1 mile vis and clear of clouds?  Seems like that's the operating principle on this original concept. As to SVFR, I also have used it to depart VFR when the airport was technically IFR but the patchy clouds clearly opened up in my direction of travel and the tower granted the request.

[Hank]

46 minutes ago, Jeff_S said:

Did anyone mention here that 1,000ft AGL is typically Class G and the instructions are simply 1 mile vis and clear of clouds?  Seems like that's the operating principle on this original concept. As to SVFR, I also have used it to depart VFR when the airport was technically IFR but the patchy clouds clearly opened up in my direction of travel and the tower granted the request.

I've done that once, but more often cancelled IFR after breaking out and going a few miles home (no approaches) below the layer.

[M20F]

On 5/9/2019 at 7:31 PM, NotarPilot said:

Recently I was flying to my home drome one night (Class D airspace with operating tower) when the ceiling was reported 1200 overcast on the ATIS. I call up the tower and request a SVFR

Just to be obnoxious, but no SVFR at night. 

[Pete M]

7 hours ago, Jeff_S said:

Did anyone mention here that 1,000ft AGL is typically Class G and the instructions are simply 1 mile vis and clear of clouds?  Seems like that's the operating principle on this original concept. As to SVFR, I also have used it to depart VFR when the airport was technically IFR but the patchy clouds clearly opened up in my direction of travel and the tower granted the request.

Op states class D

[DualRatedFlyer]

51 minutes ago, M20F said:

Just to be obnoxious, but no SVFR at night. 

Not true if you are instrument rated

 

 

91.157   Special VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in §91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport.

(b) Special VFR operations may only be conducted—

(1) With an ATC clearance;

(2) Clear of clouds;

(3) Except for helicopters, when flight visibility is at least 1 statute mile; and

(4) Except for helicopters, between sunrise and sunset (or in Alaska, when the sun is 6 degrees or more below the horizon) unless—

(i) The person being granted the ATC clearance meets the applicable requirements for instrument flight under part 61 of this chapter; and

(ii) The aircraft is equipped as required in §91.205(d).

[EricJ]

8 hours ago, Jeff_S said:

Did anyone mention here that 1,000ft AGL is typically Class G and the instructions are simply 1 mile vis and clear of clouds?  Seems like that's the operating principle on this original concept. As to SVFR, I also have used it to depart VFR when the airport was technically IFR but the patchy clouds clearly opened up in my direction of travel and the tower granted the request.

The instructor that I did most of my post-thirty-year-break currency training with said that he thought SVFR was mostly to get out of an obscured airport when conditions cleared either above or past it.  i.e., it's a way to get out of someplace if the weather is good nearby.    That's not a completely accurate assessment, but it's a very pragmatic one.

[midlifeflyer]

12 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The instructor that I did most of my post-thirty-year-break currency training with said that he thought SVFR was mostly to get out of an obscured airport when conditions cleared either above or past it.  i.e., it's a way to get out of someplace if the weather is good nearby.    That's not a completely accurate assessment, but it's a very pragmatic one.

Out of or into. SVFR really only applies "within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport." That's pretty much Class C and Class B center and Class E surface areas.

[kerry]

5 years ago I was wanting to depart from KPIH.  Ceiling were solid at 800'.  I gave the tower a phone call and asked options for a departure.  The tower told me the layer was 500 feet thick and recommended I request a marginal VFR clearance and for me to inform the tower when I broke through.  I did as the controller on the phone told me and everything went as planned.  It was the 1st time I heard of a MVFR clearance.  I don't remember it being called a special VFR clearance.  

[Jeff_S]

16 hours ago, Pete M said:

Op states class D

Yes, good point...once the OP gets into Class D. But he made the call outside Class D (I hope!) and therefore I wonder, again, whether or not the Class G regs would allow descent to 1000' AGL and be legal, i.e. 1 mile viz and clear of clouds.  Once inside the Class D, then he is in controlled airspace, and would have the clearance to operate at 1000'. I admit it's a situation that seems to skate the thin edge of several regulations...interesting dilemma to contemplate.

[NotarPilot]

On 5/18/2019 at 7:10 AM, Pete M said:

Right, but that wasn't your situation, was it? You said you made a living with your ticket so I assumed, maybe uncorrectly, that you were qualified and current. You referenced the tower controller, right? Some class D's have no radar and depend on sight. I believe those locations are generally listed as no svfr. You were right to assume that you were in both legal and safety jeapordy as relates to busting cloud clearances. A pop up alleviates that. Is it the right answer all the time? Of course not but we're paid to use our judgement and find the safest solutions to aviations little dilemmas. Not saying you didnt choose the best option for your sit, I wasnt there,  just reminding you of the option. As you stated, You're required to maitain a safe alt so as to land safely in case of power failure. The controller put you in legal jeapordy when she denied. They become masters at shifting liability. I deal with it all the time at stuart. That pop up is a get out of jail free card and has the added benifit of providing seperation. Our area has a shit ton of biz jet traffic. We dont bust cc around the local airports. The chance of ending up with the pointy end of a lear up our tail pipes is too graet.

Hi Pete, I think you were referring to me and not Hank in your post. So first of all I am instrument rated but I believe there is one flaw in your recommendation about getting a simple pop up and that’s the fact that the overcast layer is below the MEA in that area of 1600’ MSL.  ATC won’t give you a clearance, whilst flying, if you’re below the MEA because you don’t meet the minimum safe altitude so I don’t see how getting a pop up would work. 

But ultimately I believe SVFR is there to make things easier.  Could I have filed IFR from my departure airport? Absolutely, but that would have added 20 minutes to my flight and one of the reasons I have my plane is to save time.