Pete M Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 11 hours ago, Jeff_S said: Yes, good point...once the OP gets into Class D. But he made the call outside Class D (I hope!) and therefore I wonder, again, whether or not the Class G regs would allow descent to 1000' AGL and be legal, i.e. 1 mile viz and clear of clouds. Once inside the Class D, then he is in controlled airspace, and would have the clearance to operate at 1000'. I admit it's a situation that seems to skate the thin edge of several regulations...interesting dilemma to contemplate. Well, it gets a little grey there. Have to be able to land safely if power plant failure. Also, op states night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 you're in the vicinity of an airport so minimum vectoring altitude would apply for the controller which is typically lower. He would have vectored you to the faf for the approach. He may or may not have directed you to climb, but so what, now you're legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 On 5/17/2019 at 9:27 PM, Pete M said: Call aproach and get a pop up ifr clearance next time. They provide seperation, no cloud clearance legalities and you won't confuse the controllers yes controllers love when you do that.....it is the reason they get up in the morning..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Jim Peace said: yes controllers love when you do that.....it is the reason they get up in the morning..... It depends on how busy they are... and the individual controller’s character...as to whether or not they are happy about it. There’s a reason that the capability for a pop up exists, though.. and it’s pretty close to the above situation: it’s VMC, predicted to be VMC, but the weather drops to where you need to be IFR to complete the trip. Of course, in this case the field was reporting VFR- so no need to pickup ifr or svfr so long as the decent could be made legally under vfr- which it seems it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 What was in the surrounding area to the airport..? Class G? Speaking of quirky rules that we can execute with an IR... At least Back in the day, it was acceptable to fly IFR in class G... You were on your own... no ATC... just you and the other IR pilots believing in the big sky theory... OK, This is a really fuzzy memory of a situation I don’t recall very well... it wasn’t useable where I live, but could have been used in less densely populated areas. any of this sound familiar to anyone? Akin to flying IFR, but outside the system... it seems you could depart IFR from a remote airport and open your flight plan along the way, while in IMC... Most of North Jersey is covered in Class E about 700’AGL... So staying out of controlled airspace would put you very close to the ground in IMC. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, carusoam said: This is a really fuzzy memory of a situation I don’t recall very well... it wasn’t useable where I live, but could have been used in less densely populated areas. any of this sound familiar to anyone? Akin to flying IFR, but outside the system... it seems you could depart IFR from a remote airport and open your flight plan along the way, while in IMC... That's me, Mr. Remote Airport. I've never departed into IMC without a clearance beforehand . . . . But earned my wings and Rating in the cell phone age. Before that, I dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 Hank, You needed a bag phone to have this experience... the phone came mounted in a handy dandy Velcro closed BAG! the analog cell phone with the antenna connected near the top of the back window... So your firebird looked like an RC car... It was only 20years ago... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Harral Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, carusoam said: At least Back in the day, it was acceptable to fly IFR in class G... You were on your own... no ATC... just you and the other IR pilots believing in the big sky theory... This was and remains technically legal with respect to 91.155. However, the FAA is on record as saying they consider operating in the clouds without a clearance in class G airspace to be a violation of the careless/reckless clause of 91.13. See https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/3935.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 Thanks Vance! The original rules were probably written before Buddy Holly and the big bopper flew last... When super pilots were around to fly brand new equipment... So few around, you would never meet... or at least that’s what the rule writer had in mind... Seemed simple enough. As PIC with an IR it was your decision to launch... or stay on the ground... After I got my IR... that rule just seemed so anachronistic... there were so many things in aviation that fell to the test of time... and the FAA tests were still teaching things that would never get used or come back... no matter how unsafe the procedure really was... Lots of flexibility in the rule... FAA lawyer... we didn’t mean Solid IMC ... The PIC must make the call... A single Book doesn’t nearly cover all the info needed to be a safe IR pilot... I’ve only witnessed the last 20years of aviation 1/5 of what was available... intro to Mode C to ADSB, TRSAs to Class ABCD... VORs to LORAN to GPS, and WAAS.... Keep learning! Thanks again, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_S Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 12 hours ago, Vance Harral said: This was and remains technically legal with respect to 91.155. However, the FAA is on record as saying they consider operating in the clouds without a clearance in class G airspace to be a violation of the careless/reckless clause of 91.13. See https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/3935.pdf This exact situation was just covered in an article in this month's IFR magazine. They went through the regs as noted above, and the summary was pretty much the same. IFR in Class G without a flight plan doesn't violate the regs per se, but it falls into the careless/reckless classification. They cited two pilot suspension cases that were adjudicated as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midlifeflyer Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Jeff_S said: This exact situation was just covered in an article in this month's IFR magazine. They went through the regs as noted above, and the summary was pretty much the same. IFR in Class G without a flight plan doesn't violate the regs per se, but it falls into the careless/reckless classification. They cited two pilot suspension cases that were adjudicated as such. Thank you for reading my article. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 Mark, toss us a link? -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midlifeflyer Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 10 hours ago, carusoam said: Mark, toss us a link? -a- http://www.ifr-magazine.com/issues/35_5/features/Uncontrolled-IFR_1584-1.html Unfortunately, the magazine only chooses one article in each issue for non-subscription access. I've had my share but this wasn't one of them, so you'll only see the lead-in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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