Fuel Tank in Baggage Compartment

[Tcraft938]

I'm curious if anyone has experience or knowledge of an auxiliary fuel tank in the baggage compartment.  I recently saw an M20C that had STC for IO-360 so I guess in essence it's equivalent to an E model.  Peculiar to me was a little fold down hatch under the baggage door that covered a filler cap.  I have no idea how much it held, if still legal to use etc.  However if usable, it could be a way to better balance a heavy nose if have a couple of big guts in the front seats.    Thanks

[GDGR]

My F has a max on 120 lbs in the aft storage area. So, my initial inclination is to think that that storage area couldn't hold more than 20 gallons. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by GLJA

[neilpilot]

Years ago when I was with a friend at Sun-n-Fun he purchased a supplemental fuel tank, that he called a "pillow tank".  He had it installed in the luggage compartment of his M20K in preparation for an Atlantic crossing.  Sorry I can't recall any details.

Also he said approval was relatively easy, but in was a German registered Mooney.

 

Edit:  I think it might have been the 18 gal Turtle-Pac, as noted half way down the linked page  https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/ferry-tank-installations

[ArtVandelay]

What is the cost of a ferry tank install and removal these days? If expensive I might just install the LR tanks.


Tom

[1964-M20E]

I looked at a 62 or 63 C model years ago that had a tank in the baggage area.  It was a nice C but highly modified , Ray Jay, new panel etc.

[carusoam]

There are better places to put a whole bunch more fuel...

It is possible that fuel was in the baggage area... but the floor gets in the way of generating a lot of volume... beneath the floor is a few rods and things necessary for flight...

Look up the name Monroy for the standard of extended range Mooney tanks...

Better to not have any fuel in the cabin with you.... It is close enough already, in the wings...

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

There used to be lots of baggage pit fuel tanks in use. Most have gone by the wayside due to FAA and DEA regs and interest. Many were put in for a quick trip to a southern country. Now a days if you cross the border with a bag pit tank you'd better have it all documented in your logs with approvals as CBP is keyed to them. I personally don't know of any STC'd tanks for the Mooney. Could be, I just don't know of any. I can't sit that long anyway :-)

Ferry tanks are another issue entirely.

[PT20J]

Ferry tanks are not designed for permanent installation. Think you’d have to operate on a ferry permit.

[ArtVandelay]

Ferry tanks are not designed for permanent installation. Think you’d have to operate on a ferry permit.

People have traveled around the world using ferry tanks, if within W&B limits, I see no need for a ferry permit.


Tom

[PT20J]

28 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

People have traveled around the world using ferry tanks, if within W&B limits, I see no need for a ferry permit.

I was thinking of people who use ferry tanks for ferrying. How do the world travelers make the installation legal?

[ArtVandelay]

12 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I was thinking of people who use ferry tanks for ferrying. How do the world travelers make the installation legal?

From online blog about flying around the world:

”  The tank needs to be installed, certified by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and tested and retested well before the 15th of May, 2016. So far I have had a Turtlepac 100 gallon collapsible tank put in, but when the FAA inspectors came for a field approval, they rejected it, and so it came out.”

[gsxrpilot]

Brian Lloyd flew his 231 around the world following Amelia Earhart's route with a 100 gal tank in the back seat.

[PT20J]

I think the FAA is going to consider installation of a back seat bladder to be a major alteration since you have to connect to the existing certified fuel system, strap it down somehow to existing structure, and maybe install a transfer pump. That’s going to require a 337, engineering data and a field approval. Not saying it can’t be done, but there are hoops to jump through. 

The original question was about adding an extra fuel tank in the baggage compartment which, due to weight limitations in that area, would be limited to something less than 20 gallons. IMHO, a better option would be to see if an STC is availble to intall long range tanks. 

Skip

[cliffy]

Google up  Honey Mooney and see his world traveling in a older Mooney. 

For 15 hours legs he has a ferry tank installed. 

[vorlon1]

Necro post, but WOW!

On 2/3/2019 at 8:59 PM, cliffy said:

Google up  Honey Mooney and see his world traveling in a older Mooney. 

For 15 hours legs he has a ferry tank installed. 

I know, necro post, but WOW!! (my first time hearing about this fellow. Would LOVE to buy him an adult beverage and discuss his experiences...

[carusoam]

@HoneyMooney65 not sure if the same…

But they have world travelers for a while…

-a-

 

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q="Honey Mooney"&quick=1&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy

[A64Pilot]

On 2/3/2019 at 7:53 PM, PT20J said:

I was thinking of people who use ferry tanks for ferrying. How do the world travelers make the installation legal?

It’s pretty simple, documented on an 8130, it’s I believe the only time a copy of the 8130 must be carried in the airplane, but yes it’s meant as a ferry tank, not a long range tank. Turtle Pac’s are among the best. Friend in Miami who had a Marine supply used to sell them a lot in the 80’s, customers always paid in cash.

Maule used to load their aircraft so heavy with fuel to export to Australia that bags of lead shot were taped to the cowling to get to Hawaii. When fuel was burned off to stay within  CG you opened the window and used a knife to cut open the bag of lead shot and let the shot drain out.

Thrush used to export to Australia too and they would convert the 500 gl hopper into a fuel tank AND drop tanks fitted under each wing. You would use 123.45 and ask airliners to pass on position reports, good friend named Jon Eggas told me he had a report passed on soone after leaving California, then later he asked for one to be passed on as he neared Hawaii, the Airline pilot asked how many of those things were flying, Jon asked why? Airline guy said I passed on a report for one yesterday. Jon’s answer was yeah, that was me  

We would connect a bungee cord to the left Master cylinder, then wrap the cord around the stick three or four times, then connect to the right Master cylinder, twisting the wraps would give a sort of Auto Pilot in roll, at least let you relax some without out it 14 hour legs etc get very tiring.

The conversion of the hopper to fuel tank was on factory drawings so we didn’t need an 8130. When you see a fuel cap on a Thrush hopper lid you know it was ferried.

Thrush doesn’t ferry long distances anymore, makes more sense to pack the airplane in a high cube shipping container.

I think California to Hawaii is the longest over water leg there is?

These guys put Turtle Pac’s in a 231, As it’s N numbered I bet with an 8130, if you’re serious, I’d give them a call. 84 gls extra fuel, so an extra  10 hours at economy cruise?

https://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/ferry-tank-installations

 

[Aerodon]

I have an 18, 60 and 160G turtle-pac available for rent.

 

Aerodon

[Pinecone]

n

9 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

IThrush used to export to Australia too and they would convert the 500 gl hopper into a fuel tank AND drop tanks fitted under each wing. You would use 123.45 and ask airliners to pass on position reports, good friend named Jon Eggas told me he had a report passed on soone after leaving California, then later he asked for one to be passed on as he neared Hawaii, the Airline pilot asked how many of those things were flying, Jon asked why? Airline guy said I passed on a report for one yesterday. Jon’s answer was yeah, that was me  

 

I think California to Hawaii is the longest over water leg there is?

 

 

CA to HI is the flight where at mid point the aircraft is the furthest distance to ANY land.   There are longer overwater legs, but they are closer to land through the flight.  CA to Australia or JFK to SOuth Africa.

 

I was set with 5 crews to ferry AN-2s from Lithuania to the US.  They were converting the ag spray tank (removable tank on cabin floor) as aux fuel.  A fuel pump would transfer to the wing tanks after you burned them down.   Deal fell through as the work was not done when the principles arrived, and they had a deadline to get them out of Lithuania.  

I was bummed.  One in that it would have been a great adventure and a great story to tell.  And two, the primary pilot in each plane was going to get a Lithuanian pilot certificate, as the planes were still Lithuanian registry. 

[A64Pilot]

I’m pretty familiar with the AN-2. I was at Kapsovar Hungary for awhile, it was an overhaul facility for them, we trained to shoot them down in Korea, and the US Army has a fleet of the things at Ft. Bliss, the motor is a dead knock off of some US engine, so close the Army uses parts for the US engine, not sure if it’s a Pratt or a Wright or what.

Army calls it a Colt, big slow thing and not very maneuverable. Spraying I’ve heard it takes two pilots to horse the thing around, and the hopper is small, when dusting they have a guy in back cutting open bags and refilling the hopper as they are making runs, so a crew of three.

There is or was a dead one in St Vincent, the Cuban’s were going to set up a spraying op for Bananas beings friends and story is they saw the Volcano where most of the bananas were grown and just abandoned the aircraft. Bananas on St Vincent are sprayed by a Thrush owned by a Co-op, used to be a Bull Thrush, then a turbine.

There is or was one at Key West Customs too, defectors flew it in from Cuba and Customs seized it.

This is from the AN-2’s POH

According to the operating handbook, the An-2 has no stall speed. A note from the pilot's handbook reads: "If the engine quits in instrument conditions or at night, the pilot should pull the control column full aft and keep the wings level. The leading-edge slats will snap out at about 64 km/h (40 mph) and when the airplane slows to a forward speed of about 40 km/h (25 mph), the airplane will sink at about a parachute descent rate until the aircraft hits the ground."

[Pinecone]

When I flew one in Ukraine, with 4 people and maybe half fuel, the take off speed was below the ability of the airspeed indicator to read.  The needle was just starting to bounce on the peg. My friend had one, and we were doing VIP rides at an airshow.  And one pass down the runway, the tower called us, that they had us at 45 knot ground speed.  I asked if they wanted to see a LOW speed pass.

And you read all the PIREPs on flying various aircraft and they pretty much always states, "the controls are well harmonized."  To truly understand that, you need to fly an AN-2.   You NEED both hands on the yoke to turn. The ailerons are VERY heavy and not very effective.  I can see the comment about needing two pilots to spray.  If you look at the wing, the ailerons are pretty small.  The elevator is VERY light and VERY powerful.   And the rudder pedals feel like they are set in concrete, but you push and find yourself looking out the side window, as the rudder is very effective.

But a hoot to fly.  As I said, I flew it in Ukraine.  And then, one of the guys who was also on the trip, ended up buying one, just because.

 

 

[A64Pilot]

We staged out of Kapsovar Hungary until they could clear an area of mines in Bosnia for us to fly out of, we were the first aviation unit into Bosnia late Dec of 95 I guess it was?

I’ve done a left lateral hover beside of an AN-2 in flight, for such a big ole airplane they can fly remarkably slow, but I bet they burn fuel like it was free too. It was cold so I think that helped.

Makes me wonder where they got fuel for those things in the former Soviet territories?

Heaviest thing I’ve ever flown on ailerons was a B-25, I had to put one hand under the yoke to push up and the other pulling down. At first I was afraid something was wrong, surely applying that much force was going to break something?

[Pinecone]

The engine is a copy of the Wright R-1820.

It only requires 87 AKI (auto regular) fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shvetsov_ASh-62