John Pleisse Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 I would love to get a big bowl of popcorn and have at the logs for about an hour. Quote
Ron McBride Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 In 1980, I know of a 310 that was submerged due to flooding. The plane was completely reworked, new/overhauled instruments, vacuum lines, engines inspected, props every thing. This plane ate several owners to the poor house. I beleive that it is on market now. It is very low time plane for the age. After watching this one go to the detail that it went through, and then all of the headaches, I would not touch any plane that went swimming. This is just my humble opinion. Buyers beware. Ron Quote
PTK Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Quote: fantom The simple fact that the seller isn't disclosing it's recent troublesome history. Quote
John Pleisse Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 There is still a glut of airplanes from the coatal Carolina floods of Isabelle and later Charlie through Ft Myers. These planes are still being passed around and haven't been salvaged yet. Many have been flipped or dipped. Scarey. Quote
skyking Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 I tried to go on ebay to send him a message asking point blank if this is the same plane that went swimming. I dont have an ebay account and didnt feel like signing up just to ask him. If anybody has an account why not email him and ask him point blank about it and see whay he says. If he is honest then OK if not then nail him to a wall and complain to ebay and anybody else that will listen... like the BBB if he is a business! Quote
richardheitzman Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 My question to him via ebay was "is this the same aircraft that I remember that was completely submurged, chopped up and sold as salvaged, put back together and tried to be sold with out disclosure of the damage, submursion, etc" and he replied with what I said in the earlier email. I think as we are all in the Mooney community and most of us care about what our community is doing, good and bad, we have a obligation to look out for one another. Would you stand by while your buddy sold an aircraft without disclosing the fact that he did a wheel up landing, put on a new prop and put the A/C up for sale? Of course you wouldn't! So why would you stand by and watch someone sell an aircraft that was damaged beyound economical repair, chopped up into 6 pieces, engine NOT pickled or cleaned, Avionics and wiring submurged and water damaged, put back together without the use of ANY factory jiggs and then sold without disclousure? This guy should be in jail as far as I am concerned, so I voice my concern not only to the person who is selling the aircraft, but also to the community. If the guy wants to fly his own aircraft, and assumes the risk to himself then who are we to make any comment? BUT, as soon as he puts that aircraft on the market to try and sell to a someone who does not know the history, he is a fraud, and a potential murder as far as I am concerned. If there was a way to report this aircraft, and the mechanics who have thier name in the log book to the FAA then I would do it to try and get the certificate revoked. There are very clear rules on how to repair an aircraft that has water damage and in the last attempt to sell this aircraft I discussed these requirement with this person and all he could say was for me to stop slaundering him. Quote
PTK Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Quote: richardheitzman My question to him via ebay was "is this the same aircraft that I remember that was completely submurged, chopped up and sold as salvaged, put back together and tried to be sold with out disclosure of the damage, submursion, etc" and he replied with what I said in the earlier email. I think as we are all in the Mooney community and most of us care about what our community is doing, good and bad, we have a obligation to look out for one another. Would you stand by while your buddy sold an aircraft without disclosing the fact that he did a wheel up landing, put on a new prop and put the A/C up for sale? Of course you wouldn't! So why would you stand by and watch someone sell an aircraft that was damaged beyound economical repair, chopped up into 6 pieces, engine NOT pickled or cleaned, Avionics and wiring submurged and water damaged, put back together without the use of ANY factory jiggs and then sold without disclousure? This guy should be in jail as far as I am concerned, so I voice my concern not only to the person who is selling the aircraft, but also to the community. If the guy wants to fly his own aircraft, and assumes the risk to himself then who are we to make any comment? BUT, as soon as he puts that aircraft on the market to try and sell to a someone who does not know the history, he is a fraud, and a potential murder as far as I am concerned. If there was a way to report this aircraft, and the mechanics who have thier name in the log book to the FAA then I would do it to try and get the certificate revoked. There are very clear rules on how to repair an aircraft that has water damage and in the last attempt to sell this aircraft I discussed these requirement with this person and all he could say was for me to stop slaundering him. Quote
fantom Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Quote: allsmiles The simple fact that the seller isn't disclosing it's recent troublesome history. Quote
1970m20e Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 I guess I would not go so far as to call the guy a crook unless he has doctored the logs and intends to commit fraud in the sale of the airplane. However, I do think it is dishonest and not very ethical not to disclose a significant issue like this to anyone that asks the questions that he has been asked. I suspect he is trying to get someone to fall in love with the airplane so they will be able to get past the damage history. Quote
1970m20e Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Quote: 1970m20e I guess I would not go so far as to call the guy a crook unless he has doctored the logs and intends to commit fraud in the sale of the airplane. However, I do think it is dishonest and not very ethical not to disclose a significant issue like this to anyone that asks the questions that he has been asked. I suspect he is trying to get someone to fall in love with the airplane so they will be able to get past the damage history. Quote
Earl Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Quote: 1970m20e OK, that's weird that I am listed as 1970m20e as that is not me. Have seen others complain about being logged in as someone else but this is my first experience. Quote
Becca Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 This whole thing baffles me: I don't know why someone would buy an airplane on eBay site unseen and logs unseen. Certainly when we were looking at airplanes, we searched ebay. But then we contacted the seller and asked to arrange to see the logs and visit the plane before the auction closed. If that wasn't possible, we wouldn't bid. I give you, my dear jetdriven definitely tried to sell me on some "great deals" he saw on the internet, even from salvage places, but I repeated the lines: read logs, pre-buy inspection before money exchanges hands. Its amazing though even an educated shopper seems to be able to talk themselves out of that when faces with 5 figure savings. As for the ethics of this particular transaction, @allsmiles protests aside, based on the responses you guys have been getting back, he is clearly being evasive and concealing the damage, on the other hand, used cars salesmen abound. Logs do tell all though and google the N'number gives you a lot of information. However, if the logs have been doctored, then you're getting into criminal misconduct vs. unethical business practices. Quote
PTK Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Quote: Becca This whole thing baffles me: I don't know why someone would buy an airplane on eBay site unseen and logs unseen. Certainly when we were looking at airplanes, we searched ebay. But then we contacted the seller and asked to arrange to see the logs and visit the plane before the auction closed. If that wasn't possible, we wouldn't bid. I give you, my dear jetdriven definitely tried to sell me on some "great deals" he saw on the internet, even from salvage places, but I repeated the lines: read logs, pre-buy inspection before money exchanges hands. Its amazing though even an educated shopper seems to be able to talk themselves out of that when faces with 5 figure savings. As for the ethics of this particular transaction, @allsmiles protests aside, based on the responses you guys have been getting back, he is clearly being evasive and concealing the damage, on the other hand, used cars salesmen abound. Logs do tell all though and google the N'number gives you a lot of information. However, if the logs have been doctored, then you're getting into criminal misconduct vs. unethical business practices. Quote
RJBrown Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Years ago in 1994 I looked at N1171J a 1982 231 Serial # 25-0708. After looking at it and doing some checking I discovered it had been flooded by the Mississippi river and was sold as salvage by Avemco. It had been completely covered by water in a hanger while the owner was in Europe. By the time I figured it all out and called AOPA they informed me they had just escrowed the sale. I followed it over the years and each time it showed a new owner I would call and let them know the history. All the owners I talked to were glad to know the reason for the trouble they had seen. It seemed that the plane would sell every 2 or so years. The current owner has owned it for 5 years. He changed the N number to N30EV. He was very angry to know the history. He swore at me when I told him that any subsequent owner would also know. early on I did contact the FAA about the fraudulent nature of the sale and log books. They DID NOT care or follow up. The FAA is not there to protect anyone. Quote
PTK Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Quote: RJBrown Years ago in 1994 I looked at N1171J a 1982 231 Serial # 25-0708. After looking at it and doing some checking I discovered it had been flooded by the Mississippi river and was sold as salvage by Avemco. It had been completely covered by water in a hanger while the owner was in Europe. By the time I figured it all out and called AOPA they informed me they had just escrowed the sale. I followed it over the years and each time it showed a new owner I would call and let them know the history. All the owners I talked to were glad to know the reason for the trouble they had seen. It seemed that the plane would sell every 2 or so years. The current owner has owned it for 5 years. He changed the N number to N30EV. He was very angry to know the history. He swore at me when I told him that any subsequent owner would also know. early on I did contact the FAA about the fraudulent nature of the sale and log books. They DID NOT care or follow up. The FAA is not there to protect anyone. Quote
fantom Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 We need to look after each other, well except for New Jersey dentists who probably count on people not checking out their history before going to them ;-) Which reminds me: Scam Alerts Dentist fraud Most dentists are honest, ethical professionals who provide their patients competent and caring treatment.A small but disturbing number of dentists, however, are dishonest. They exploit their position of authority to bilk trusting patients with useless and often painful treatment, and shady billing practices. These dentists want to line their own pockets with insurance money — often jeopardizing your own health and coverage. The scams Worthless treatment. Dishonest dentists perform useless surgery on perfectly healthy patients to hike their own insurance billings. The dentists remove healthy teeth, do root canals that aren’t needed, and drill for cavities that don’t exist. Sometimes children’s teeth are even drilled without painkiller. Often the surgery is botched: Shoddy crowns or fillings fall out. Patients have found surgical debris embedded in their gums. Patients also become painfully infected and disfigured, and need more surgery to correct the treatments. Inflated billings. Dishonest dentists do minor procedures such as routine tooth cleanings, but bill your insurance plan for costlier treatments such as phantom root canals or cavity fillings. Phantom treatment. Dentists bill insurers for treatments they never perform. They send the insurer forged bills for fake treatment, medicine and supplies they never used. They may bill the policies of current patients, or invent “patients” they’ve never even met. Unlicensed dentists and employees. Sometimes dentists illegally treat patients despite losing their licenses for previous infractions. Some dentists also have hygienists, assistants or other staff perform treatments — even though they aren’t licensed or qualified. The dentists then bill insurers as if the dentists performed the treatment themselves. And you could receive shoddy treatment. Fake dental plans. Con artists sell fake dental insurance to people and businesses. This leaves you dangerously unprotected when you need costly dental treatment. Typically the plan operators are shady businesspeople, not dentists. The price you pay Painful, dangerous and disfiguring surgery. Needless surgeries such as worthless root canals can be painful and endanger your health and wellbeing. The surgeries can become swollen and infected. You may need more surgery to correct the earlier procedures, which often are botched. Your policy limits can max out. Falsely billing your dental plan can exhaust your policy limits. Thus you could have little or no coverage when you need treatment for painful dental problems in the future. You may have to pay expensive bills out of your own pocket, or delay needed treatment.Your dental premiums may rise. Fraudulent claims against your policy could force your insurance premiums higher. That’s more money out of your pocket. Fight back Verify you need the treatment. A dentist may urge treatment that seems unusual or unneeded. Trust your instinct and delay the procedures until you verify you need them. For example: A dentist insists you need eight cavities drilled, and pressures you to do the drilling right away even though your teeth feel fine. Get a second or third opinion. Visit two other dentists to confirm you need the treatments. Ask friends or colleagues for dentists they trust.Check out dentists. Call your state insurance department and state dental board. Was the dentist disciplined for wrongdoing? Currently licensed? History of patient complaints? Not easy, but it must be done!Ask what to expect. Ask your dentist what discomfort (if any) your should expect, and how long it should last. Review your explanation of benefits (EOB). Make sure you and your insurance plan are billed only for treatments, medicines and supplies you received. Some EOBs are mailed, and some are posted on your insurer’s website. Suspect a swindle? Tell the authorities. Contact your insurance company and state insurance department. Contact Medicare or Medicaid if you’re a recipient of these benefits. Have your facts, dates, names, treatment details, bills and other evidence of fraud all organized and ready. Stay with your kids? Some dentists perform useless surgery on kids. Ask if you can stay in the treatment room to make sure you child is ok, the procedures are as painless as possible, and only the promised treatments are done. If the dentist asks that you not be present, find out why and make sure the explanation makes sense.Check out your plan. Be careful of sales pitches for dental plans you’ve never heard of. One warning sign: High-pressure sales tactics to sell unusually generous benefits at suspiciously low prices. Be especially careful if you’re buying coverage as an individual or small business. Contact your state insurance department to ensure the plan is licensed in your state. Oh, and NEVER buy dental coveral on e-bay :-))) Quote
PTK Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Wow! You have some built up anger towards some Dentist in Florida Fantom?! Or do you watch too much tv?! You should come to NJ. Quote
fantom Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 While of course no one has a corner on virtue, using that as justification for false advertising, misrepresentation, and a lack of integrity is unconscionable, IMO. I try to lead a moral life, fall short too often, and get just as angry on unjust treatment of others as I do when the unjust treatment is on me. What the seller is trying to do is unjust and immoral IMO, and I'm offended that you think it's OK. All this is making my teeth hurt, so over and out. Quote
PTK Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Quote: fantom While of course no one has a corner on virtue, using that as justification for false advertising, misrepresentation, and a lack of integrity is unconscionable, IMO. I try to lead a moral life, fall short too often, and get just as angry on unjust treatment of others as I do when the unjust treatment is on me. What the seller is trying to do is unjust and immoral IMO, and I'm offended that you think it's OK. All this is making my teeth hurt, so over and out. Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Quote: allsmiles You guys ARE rough! You want to put the man in jail for trying to sell an airplane! For trying to make an honest buck! Quote
N33GG Posted June 8, 2011 Report Posted June 8, 2011 Several years ago, I was looking at another make/model aircraft to purchase. I went through the logs thoroughly... complete and clean back to day one. I decided not to buy the airplane for other reasons. Shortly after I passed on the deal, someone from that aircraft association called me and said "Psssst... you do know that the aircraft you were looking at was the one that was landed on water and sank to the bottom of....". It was only luck that I didn't get that airplane. A few years later, I was looking at another aircraft, clean logs, just like before, but some things didn't look right in the prepurchase inspection. The metal looked funny in places, like nothing I had ever seen before. I started calling previous owners, and one of them said "You know that aircraft was in a hangar fire and it got so hot some of it melted, don't you?" Even with due diligence, and a thorough review of the logs, it is possible to miss big problems in the purchase process. If I were selling this airplane, a full disclosure would be on every ad and posting. Then buyers could decide if they wanted a bargain, but they would know what there were getting. It might not get sold as quickly, and the disclosure might run off several buyers, but when it did sell, I would still sleep fine. But then again, this gets to the core of the issue... I would care and it would matter to me if a buyer got duped. Some people just don't care. Shameful IMHO. Quote
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