Legal question - Runway usage - non-towered airport

[midlifeflyer]

If the question is pure "legality" there are no rules or regulations I am aware of prohibiting a pilot from taxiing onto the runway and just sitting there with his or her back to landing traffic.

There is of course, 91.13 careless and reckless operation, which would come into play in the right, or rather, wrong,  circumstances.

[Seth]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

Everything not specifically denied is legal. The only reference anyone has posted is from the Controller's Handbook, which I as a pilot do not have. Or need . . . .

Why do you think it isn't legal? Why do you think controllers' limits (what other ones are there?) apply to pilots? How are we pilots supposed to know the controllers' rules? They aren't covered in PPL or Instrument training, nor any of the Flight Reviews or IPCs that I've had? 

Drilled into my head at some point - and no, I haven't check to see if this is actually the case - was that outside of special circumstances like formation flight, no two aircraft are to be on any runway pavement at the same time.  So that means waiting until the airplane is clear before taxing on for takeoff at a non-towered airport.  At a towered field it is different as you have someone in the tower "watching" your blindside.

If an airplane is not clear of the runway but clearing you are not allowed to touch down even if they will be clear or are toward the end of their takeoff roll.  It makes perfect sense for safety, but what is the rule at non-towered fields.

Thanks!

-Seth

[Seth]

13 hours ago, Marauder said:

The AIM is filled with the word "uncontrolled" and it clearly reads to mean they are uncontrolled. From the AIM: "Use of the appropriate CTAF, combined with a visual alertness and application of the following recommended good operating practices (section 4.1.9), will enhance safety of flight into and out of all uncontrolled airports." 

Look up AIM section 4.1.9 https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/AIM.pdf

 

Correct, Uncontrolled is the proper term.  I personally like stating non-towered for when I discuss this with the non-pilot population. The look of horror when I say I'm based at an "uncontroled" field vs a "non-towered" field.

Kind of like renting out my former townhouse basement.  If it was a "lower level suite" I'd get $200 more per month than a "basement for rent."

-Seth

[Marauder]

53 minutes ago, Seth said:

Correct, Uncontrolled is the proper term.  I personally like stating non-towered for when I discuss this with the non-pilot population. The look of horror when I say I'm based at an "uncontroled" field vs a "non-towered" field.

Kind of like renting out my former townhouse basement.  If it was a "lower level suite" I'd get $200 more per month than a "basement for rent."

-Seth

Well, I was based at KILG for years. A towered field. And at 11:01 PM every night, it became an uncontrolled field. I was pretty sure they didn't take the tower down for the night. 

[Steve W]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

If the question is pure "legality" there are no rules or regulations I am aware of prohibiting a pilot from taxiing onto the runway and just sitting there with his or her back to landing traffic.

There is of course, 91.13 careless and reckless operation, which would come into play in the right, or rather, wrong,  circumstances.

And 91.113 for the right of way rules... Which basically just says you better not still be in the way when the traffic wants to land.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Steve W said:

And 91.113 for the right of way rules... Which basically just says you better not still be in the way when the traffic wants to land.

Because no one can land over a plane sitting on the line . . . . Like we all did in training . . . .

[Yetti]

untowered field

[Yetti]

9 hours ago, Seth said:

 I personally like stating non-towered for when I discuss this with the non-pilot population. The look of horror when I say I'm based at an "uncontroled" field vs a "non-towered" field.

 

-Seth

The same look when you tell them that you can just jump in the plane and fly where you want without talking to anyone.   After the stunned pause.   I usually say "you don't have to talk to someone when you drive in your car to colorado"

[Cooperd0g]

On 10/15/2018 at 10:51 AM, Bob - S50 said:

Others have covered the legality.

In my opinion, I do not like line up and wait at either a towered or non-towered airport.

Witness the accident at LAX when a plane was put into position and forgotten at night and another aircraft landed on top of him.  I like being able to see traffic on final and I can't do that if I'm on the runway and pointed at the departure end.

At non-towered airport I don't see the usefulness of line up and wait.  If you plan to do that and release brakes when the landing aircraft has cleared the runway, you probably have enough judgement to sit short of the runway and start rolling onto the runway as the landing aircraft begins their turn off the runway.  In the line up and wait case you can no longer see the position of the plane on base, you don't know if he was paying attention to your call, you hope he notices a plane on the runway, and you hope the landing aircraft doesn't roll longer than anticipated.  By holding short you can monitor both aircraft.  When the landing aircraft begins to turn off, you can check the position and speed of the plane that was on base and decide if you can get airborne in time or not.

Plus, if I'm not mistaken, even ATC uses "anticipated clearance".  That is, they don't necessarily have to wait until one aircraft has cleared the runway before they clear another for takeoff.  They just have to anticipate that it will be clear in time.

I'm in agreement with Bob, I don't like line up and wait either. There is a trade of efficiency with danger. I can't find the source right now, but I read a few years ago that line up and wait was one of the biggest sources of runway incursions. People thought they were given line up and wait when it was another aircraft, people started a takeoff when they were given line up and wait, aircraft were cleared to land when another one is conducting line up and wait. All bad scenarios. I do it because I follow the directions of ATC at towered airports, but it puts me on hyper-alert. 

ATC absolutely has to use "anticipated clearance" based on my experience. I frequently get cleared to land before the one in front of me has even touched down even, let alone off the runway. Certain aircraft types will have different buffer zones as well. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Cooperd0g
typos

[HXG]

Legal or not. It may be considered careless and reckless if it leads to a runway incursion. Don’t “line up and wait” at nontowered airports. It’s not appropriate or good form. It only saves you a few seconds at the risk of potential traffic conflicts. 

[Mooneymite]

2 hours ago, HXG said:

Legal or not. It may be considered careless and reckless if it leads to a runway incursion. Don’t “line up and wait” at nontowered airports. It’s not appropriate or good form. It only saves you a few seconds at the risk of potential traffic conflicts. 

Careless and reckless?  I don't think so.

If the FAA permits control towers to use it, it would have a tough time proving "careless and reckless" at an uncontrolled airport.

Personally, I use it when appropriate.  It isn't always appropriate, but sometimes it is.  I'd hate to see some rule-happy bureaucrat make a one-size-fits-all rule.

Bottom line:  if you don't like the old position and hold, don't use it!

[jaylw314]

7 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Careless and reckless?  I don't think so.

If the FAA permits control towers to use it, it would have a tough time proving "careless and reckless" at an uncontrolled airport.

Personally, I use it when appropriate.  It isn't always appropriate, but sometimes it is.  I'd hate to see some rule-happy bureaucrat make a one-size-fits-all rule.

Bottom line:  if you don't like the old position and hold, don't use it!

+1. Any rules notwithstanding, ideas that include "always" and "never" tend not to be correct.

[HXG]

Think and do what you want, but “Line up and wait” is a TOWERED  airport operation. Position and hold is ancient terminology. I prefer not to have my back blind while sitting on the runway as an airplane stalls before the exit. I personally don’t agree with using LUAW at nontowered airports. People do it for sure and I certainly don’t complain about it on the radio, but I still don’t consider it good form. I believe the FAA would agree with me. 

[jaylw314]

16 minutes ago, HXG said:

Think and do what you want, but “Line up and wait” is a TOWERED  airport operation. Position and hold is ancient terminology. I prefer not to have my back blind while sitting on the runway as an airplane stalls before the exit. I personally don’t agree with using LUAW at nontowered airports. People do it for sure and I certainly don’t complain about it on the radio, but I still don’t consider it good form. I believe the FAA would agree with me. 

Again, to put it in perspective, uncontrolled airfields with no taxiway will require you to back-taxi down the runway for an extended period of time, which results in turning your back on any landing wrong-way NORDO traffic.  You'd never know about it until they ended up in your back seat.  This is a potential risk, and the only way to avoid it is to not land at such an airfield, but clearly there are people willing to take that risk (legally and reasonably). 

The risks of pulling onto the runway and waiting can be mitigated by exercising judgement.  On the other hand, those risks need to be pretty minimal if the other options are available.

 

 

[HXG]

Think and do what you want, but “Line up and wait” is a TOWERED  airport operation. Position and hold is ancient terminology. I prefer not to have my back blind while sitting on the runway as an airplane stalls before the exit. I personally don’t agree with using LUAW at nontowered airports. People do it for sure and I certainly don’t complain about it on the radio, but I still don’t consider it good form. I believe the FAA would agree with me. 

[HXG]

I wasn’t talking about runways which require back taxing- all you can do is communicate often. Maybe I misunderstood this post. I was speaking of general operations at not towered airports. I fly out of a busy nontowered airport where I’ve seen several pilots including me in my mooney forced to go around because somebody decided to lineup after landing traffic still on the runway which took longer to clear than expected. I’m certainly no fan of LUAW at nontowered airports. 

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, HXG said:

I believe the FAA would agree with me. 

  

[jaylw314]

52 minutes ago, HXG said:

I wasn’t talking about runways which require back taxing- all you can do is communicate often. Maybe I misunderstood this post. I was speaking of general operations at not towered airports. I fly out of a busy nontowered airport where I’ve seen several pilots including me in my mooney forced to go around because somebody decided to lineup after landing traffic still on the runway which took longer to clear than expected. I’m certainly no fan of LUAW at nontowered airports. 

Before taking the runway

1. Use the damn radio
2. Check for traffic on final and base
3. If there's not time and space to pull onto the active runway, don't do it

Pilot's who ignore the above are rude nincompoops, but that's true whether there's a tower or not, and it's true whether you wait before takeoff or not. 

[skydvrboy]

13 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Before taking the runway

1. Use the damn radio
2. Check for traffic on final and base
3. If there's not time and space to pull onto the active runway, don't do it

Pilot's who ignore the above are rude nincompoops, but that's true whether there's a tower or not, and it's true whether you wait before takeoff or not. 

Swap 1 & 2.  Look before you even make your radio call.

[jaylw314]

Just now, skydvrboy said:

Swap 1 & 2.  Look before you even make your radio call.

I was thinking listen first, but point taken

[HXG]

49 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

  

Think and do what you want, but “Line up and wait” is a TOWERED  airport operation. Position and hold is ancient terminology. I prefer not to have my back blind while sitting on the runway as an airplane stalls before the exit. I personally don’t agree with using LUAW at nontowered airports. People do it for sure and I certainly don’t complain about it on the radio, but I still don’t consider it good form. I believe the FAA would agree with me. 

[HXG]

Mooneymite, Feel free to laugh at my expense. I’m just a CFII, MEI, ATP etc.  with thousands of hours. What do I know? Not everything, but some have found my opinions useful. I guess differing opinions  aren’t too welcomed by moonymite.

While certainly not legally binding, the only FAA reference I’ve ever found regarding LUAW at nontowered airports reads as follows: PHAK Appendix 1 Runway Incursion Avoidance. page 1.10 “NOTE: Line up and wait/holding in position is not recommended at nontowered airports.” 

I doubt you’ll ever find any FAA statement supporting LUAW at nontowered airports since it is a towered airport operation. It’s certainly not the worst thing in the world. But, I still don’t agree with it. That’s all I have to say about it. 

[jaylw314]

55 minutes ago, HXG said:

While certainly not legally binding, the only FAA reference I’ve ever found regarding LUAW at nontowered airports reads as follows: PHAK Appendix 1 Runway Incursion Avoidance. page 1.10 “NOTE: Line up and wait/holding in position is not recommended at nontowered airports.” 

I doubt you’ll ever find any FAA statement supporting LUAW at nontowered airports since it is a towered airport operation. It’s certainly not the worst thing in the world. But, I still don’t agree with it. That’s all I have to say about it. 

I think that's a pretty darn reasonable position

[Marauder]

Hey, look on the bright side, we’re not talking about LOP vs. ROP, flaps vs. no flaps, Depends vs. Travel Johns vs. José’s piss tube Venturi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, HXG said:

Mooneymite, Feel free to laugh at my expense. I’m just a CFII, MEI, ATP etc.  with thousands of hours. What do I know? Not everything, but some have found my opinions useful. 

And I'm a student pilot.  Still learning...every day, every flight.

However I found it humorous that you know the mind of the FAA.

Happily, at an uncontrolled airport you may operate as you please.  No one will tell you to do anything you don't want to do.

Carry on.  Be happy.