Downsizing C340 driver

[rsmith]

I'm a newbee to the site. A little background first. I bought a new 201 in 1981 from Henry Weber in lancaster Pa. Flew it pretty much everyday for biz in the NE corridor. Put 2400 hours on it by 1987. Opened a operation in Fla and was running the mooney back and forth to Pa a couple times a week. Looked around at the time and ended up with a 1984 C340a and yes there is nothing like a pressurized aircraft. Have been flying the 340 for the last 23 years. With the fuel prices the last 2 years and Obamanomics killing my biz I put the 340 up for sale and am looking at going back to a 201. I dont need to be anywhere quick or on a precise timetable anymore. I know the 201 in and out and still have a lot of spare parts from my old one. I've been looking at a few and wondering what the current thoughts are on the fleet. I'm thinking mid 80's with removable rear seats and one piece belly. I really dont care about a fancy panel. I would like some input on autopilots. I had a KFC 200 in the 201 and it was my major sorce of problems. I also got about 300hrs TBF on the KI256 FD horizon and wouldnt fly IFR without a backup horizion. Are the KAP 150's any better?

I'm looking in the $70-80k range with a hi time engine that I'll get done by a guy I use down here in Fla,

thanks for the input

[KSMooniac]

Welcome to Mooneyspace!  I would concur that an ~84+ would be the sweet spot to jump in, but I haven't noticed any of that vintage in your target budget range, at least advertised anyway.  Sales prices might be in that neighborhood, though.  The 1-pc belly and individual rear seats are very nice.

My '77 came with an STEC-30 thanks to the previous owner and it has been a very good match to my mission.  No fancy (expensive) gyros to drive it, and with WAAS & GPSS it is a very, very capable single-pilot IFR setup.  I believe the King A/P typical of the well-equipped Mooneys of the 80s still require some dollars every now and then between the computer, servos and gyros just as you remember.  You said you didn't need a fancy panel, but something to consider is replacement of the gyros with an Aspen unit & autopilot adapter to avoid future overhaul costs while (presumably) increasing reliability.  Retrofit-wise, there are unfortunately few options today.  STEC or perhaps a Century 2000 and that's about it as far as I understand it.

To get down into your budget, you might need to look at earlier J's.  While I would love a 1-pc belly and individual rear seats, my '77 was a stretch for me as it was at the time, and I got a great plane with a solid history and upgrades.  Someday I'll add the new carbon fiber 1-pc belly option since it is weight-neutral while the original fiberglass version eats up 10-15 lbs of useful load.  If I need cargo room now, I fold my bench seat back down flat and that works well enough for now...  

If you're still planning for IFR XC travel, you might want to re-think what you get in the panel since the avionics upgrades typically return ~50% of the cost at resale, so you'll theoretically get more capability if you buy as much as you can already installed.  I would consider a 430W at a minimum, and hopefully at least a modern nav/com to go along with it.  New transponder, electric backup horizon, portable Garmin with WX, etc. would be gravy on top of the 430W or better.  

Lots of potential trade-offs to consider to get into your target budget, so I would recommend you assign a priority and value to each option/feature and try to figure a corresponding value for each candidate plane you find.

Good luck!  (and you're making a great decision returning to a J!)

[rsmith]

I've been talking to a guy down here that has a 81 like my old one.Still has the kns80 and std king stuff. Talking mid $60's 2500hrs tt with a unverified field ovh @1850. orig paint. Cent 31 pilot. I used a one man shop who let me do owner asist when I had the Mooney and those belly panels were one PITA. Sure would be nice to have the one piece.

[rsmith]

A couple other questions. I've scene a lot of stuff about tank leaks and the tubular frame corrosion. How prevalent is it? When I had mine I had complied with having the tanks opened and checked for the drain holes to be open and the replacement of the insulation at the wing root and corrosion inspection. I understand in 1988 the frames were coated with epoxy Is this a major + and worth paying a couple extra bux for?

[jetdriven]

in my opinion its nothing to buy a newer plane over, but any plane I bought would have the left sidewall pulled out and the tubes visually inspected.  Along with the spar cap in the center section and especially in the wheel wells for corrosion. We also pulled a cylinder and looked at the cam and followers to be sure that was good too.    We did all this, ours is a 1977 and it was fine.  Make sure SB-M20-208 A and B were done in the logs, and verify the old insulation has been replaced and the windows dont leak.

 

Fuel tank leaks can cost 8K or more, the same whether its done right or fails a week later.  Bladders solve it but cost 8K.  You also lose 30 lbs useful load.  Make dang sure its filled to the brim and sits a while, check for staining and leaks.

 

One piece belly is nice but it saves a couple hours labor 2x a year for 7K. Zero speed gain.  Nice to get on one but I woudnt add it to mine.

[rsmith]

Any idea what the life limit is on the tank reseal? I know when I bought mine the older mooneys always had fuel stains under them but Webber told me at the time the new sealants didnt have that problem. I guess pushing 30 years is not bad. But Ive seen where the reseals have leaked is it a material or aplication issue?

[KSMooniac]

I think the tubular frame corrosion (or any corrosion elsewhere for that matter) is more a function of where the plane has lived, and especially if it has been hangared.  Just another item to check during the pre-buy...

Fuel tanks may or may not leak, and unfortunately that is something we have to deal with eventually.  I've heard of some 80's vintage Mooneys still going on the original sealant, but I don't know how rare it is.  Mine needed to be done in year 2 of ownership, so I went to the expert in Willmar and am satisfied that I won't ever have to deal with it again.  Like an engine overhaul, you need to be prepared for it at some point in my opinion...

I still caution you that the panel equipment will be the greatest expense, so really think about what you would like to have while you own it, and also what prospective buyers will want when it comes time to sell.  You might be fine flying the KNS80, but most of us these days will want a modern GPS.  I think it makes more sense to get as much as you can possibly afford already installed in the plane as it will cost a lot more to add those items later.  Just more food for thought...

[fantom]

While I don't follow the used market closely, my J (MSE) is a '94 that I bought new. It has been, and continues to be, a pleasure.

The KAP 150 has had no problems (knock wood), the rear seats fold down, the front seats fully articulate, the newer tank sealant is much less problematic, the 2,900# rather than 2,740 gross weight maximum is real nice, wing mounted landing and taxi lights are brighter and less prone to vibration, the one piece belly is sweet, a 24v electrical system eases the load, there is more sound insulation, the seat belts-safely harness-inertial reel is great, the windows don't leak, rounded window corners look good, a number of other subtle upgrades will be a plus, and according to the best of MSC's SB-M20-208 is a waste of time and money on a 1990+ MSE (J).

The common wisdom, that I subscribe to also, is that you buy the newest Mooney, in the best condition, that your budget will permit. As Scott said above, with your XC plans the better avionics you can already get the plane the better, especially from a financial perspective. Presumably given a newer plane, the gizmos will have less hours on them, the bugs will have been exterminated, and you'll enjoy longer trouble free ownership.

With that budget of 70 to 80K, your allowance for an engine that could be another 30K, and avoiding more investment for freshened avionics, I think that with some careful shopping, you are very close to a 1990 MSE.

Best of luck with your search, and if you want to speak to me just drop me a PM.

 

[Kwixdraw]

Second about everything that has been said. I think the lifespan of the tank seal depends a lot on how you use the plane and good maintenance in other areas. Rough/dirt strips are going to be a factor in lots of ways. My gear doors are pretty beat from the previous owners trips to Mexico. Even resort strips are not always very smooth. Bad shock donuts will send the shock of touchdown through the whole structure and promote those nasty leaks. Letting the landing gear go until you have some real slop in the operation is a Bad idea. Just like the post on changing hardware to get rid of a loose tail, I think you could do yourself some real good and just replace the nuts and bolts in the gear every 3-4 years and grease well in between. It would be cheap insurance and you would have no doubts about everything being in top shape.

[rsmith]

$30k for the OH? 3 years ago I did both TSIO 520's in the 340 including the turbos wastgates and assys it was a little over 30ea. and that was with all new cylinders. I have several independant IA's that will do it in my hangar.I was looking at about 19k. Are the Lycos parts that more expensive these days? I had my 201 done in 87 at Bloomsburg Pa for $9800 turn key with all new baffeles. Although that was a long time ago I do have an idea of what is involved.

[David Mazer]

I know someone getting his M20F O/H right now and expects it to cost $25,000.  So, $30,000 isn't out of the realm of possibility depending on what needs to be done.  There is also a guy at FXE that specializes in Mooney wing tanks.  He did mine in 2007 and I haven't had any leaks since then.  A couple problems with the sump leaking, but the tanks have been fine.

[vasco]

Welcome to Mooneyspace!!

What brings all of us together on this forum is our interest, love, passion, etc. for Mooneys.  I think this forum is much to the better if we keep our focus on what brings all of us to this forum.  I believe that any reference (positive or negative) to our current or past President is inappropriate.

This is my two cents.  Thank you.

[74657]

Quote: vasco

Welcome to Mooneyspace!!

What brings all of us together on this forum is our interest, love, passion, etc. for Mooneys.  I think this forum is much to the better if we keep our focus on what brings all of us to this forum.  I believe that any reference (positive or negative) to our current or past President is inappropriate.

This is my two cents.  Thank you.

[fantom]

Quote: 74657

 

Are you kidding me?  The OP makes a comment as to why he wants to sell his current plane (which is a valid assessment from his perspective in my opinion) and you get hurt feelings. 

[vasco]

"With the fuel prices the last 2 years and Obamanomics killing my biz I put the 340 up for sale and am looking at going back to a 201. "'

i was referring to the above post.  I agree this forum should not be for political discussion.

[FlyFstr]

Re: "With the fuel prices the last 2 years and Obamanomics killing my biz I put the 340 up for sale and am looking at going back to a 201. "'

This was not an offensive remark whatsoever.

I’m tired of this political correctness and the need to give “kid glove treatment” to certain ultra sensitive people that don’t want to hear others views on things that happen in this world.

When we sit around the hanger with our flying buddies we discuss all kinds of opinions and in part, it’s what keeps us interesting.

We are all pilots, why can’t we do the same here?

I wish to thank rsmith for calling an ace an ace, and a shovel a shovel.

When I read this post it was like me looking in the mirror. The only difference is I already sold my Baron  because of “fuel prices the last 2 years and Obamanomics”. A quick look at used aircraft prices and inventory tells me rsmith and me aren’t the only ones.

[AlexR]

Here, Here!  Putting our collective heads in the sand is a sure course to having to trade in our mooneys for ultralights...ala Europe.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: FlyFstr

...This was not an offensive remark whatsoever.

I’m tired of this political correctness and the need to give “kid glove treatment” to certain ultra sensitive people that don’t want to hear others views on things that happen in this world.

When we sit around the hanger with our flying buddies we discuss all kinds of opinions and in part, it’s what keeps us interesting.

[FlyFstr]

"DO we really want to discuss politics here?"

No. But we should not try to control and intimidate those that express thier views. 

"If I knew this would have been a discussion about politics I would have passed."

Then why did you post 2 big paragraphs expressing your political views? Maybe you should have passed. 

"I vote for no politics."

Again, then why did you post your own political statement? Don't talk out of both sides of your mouth.

IMHO - Lets talk airplane speak, but lets not suppress and try to control that speak. We can ignore what we don't want to debate and bring the subject back to Mooneys which is REALLY  what I think vasco and aviatoreb are suggesting.  

  

 

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: FlyFstr

"DO we really want to discuss politics here?"

No. But we should not try to control and intimidate those that express thier views. 

"If I knew this would have been a discussion about politics I would have passed."

Then why did you post 2 big paragraphs expressing your political views? Maybe you should have passed. 

"I vote for no politics."

Again, then why did you post your own political statement? Don't talk out of both sides of your mouth.

IMHO - Lets talk airplane speak, but lets not suppress and try to control that speak. We can ignore what we don't want to debate and bring the subject back to Mooneys which is REALLY  what I think vasco and aviatoreb are suggesting.  

[David Mazer]

If you are still even reading these posts, I know of an M20F in that price range with a new engine but no A/P.  If you are interested, PM me and I will get the owner's name and phone number for you.

[RJBrown]

Sure lets talk politics! It is a big part of the environment we fly in. After 11 posts that were on point someone got their panties in a twist.

It is obvious that the person taking offence is for Obama. He is a "liberal"  I have seen that liberals are the first to try and curb "free speech" when it disagrees with the hallowed liberal view. If a liberal can't argue a point they attack the other person. Don't be such a hypocrite.

 Lets talk airplanes Boeing Dreamliners to be exact. Some liberal progressive union pigeon in the Obama administration is trying to send jobs to China instead of North Carolina. That's Obamanomics!! The IDIOT is trying to kill America and you are to stupid to see it.

Have I offended you yet? Good get off your high horse and quit being such a whiner.

I try to keep my opinions neutral in an attempt to be polite. But vasco pulling his smug hypocritical left wing Bull, or should I say Donkey, $#1^ is too much.

The comment about Obamanomics was just a way to frame the factors affecting the environment we fly in. I've owned a small business 30 years as of yesterday June first and I understand the reference.

 Do you understand the absurdity of borrowing you way out of debt? Spending your way to solvency? Obama acts as if he doesn't.

[GeorgePerry]

We all have different opinions but I would hope we can ALL agree with the 1st amendment of our constitution.  Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak freely without censorship. The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes used to indicate not only freedom of verbal speech but any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.

Basically this is a forum to discuss Mooney airplanes and other aviation related topics.  However, I respectfully submit to the group that since we all pay taxes on the money we make, and since we pay for our planes with the money left over,  and since the airspace we fly in is federally controlled, politics and the rest of our lives (aviation included) are inextricably linked.

Anyone attempting to censor anyone else’s comments (to the extent they meet certain decency standards) is just un-American. 

 

 

[jetdriven]

Quote: RJBrown

Sure lets talk politics! It is a big part of the environment we fly in. After 11 posts that were on point someone got their panties in a twist.

It is obvious that the person taking offence is for Obama. He is a "liberal"  I have seen that liberals are the first to try and curb "free speech" when it disagrees with the hallowed liberal view. If a liberal can't argue a point they attack the other person. Don't be such a hypocrite.

 Lets talk airplanes Boeing Dreamliners to be exact. Some liberal progressive union pigeon in the Obama administration is trying to send jobs to China instead of North Carolina. That's Obamanomics!! The IDIOT is trying to kill America and you are to stupid to see it.

Have I offended you yet? Good get off your high horse and quit being such a whiner.

I try to keep my opinions neutral in an attempt to be polite. But vasco pulling his smug hypocritical left wing Bull, or should I say Donkey, $#1^ is too much.

The comment about Obamanomics was just a way to frame the factors affecting the environment we fly in. I've owned a small business 30 years as of yesterday June first and I understand the reference.

 Do you understand the absurdity of borrowing you way out of debt? Spending your way to solvency? Obama acts as if he doesn't.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: RJBrown

Sure lets talk politics! It is a big part of the environment we fly in. After 11 posts that were on point someone got their panties in a twist.

It is obvious that the pers

on taking offence is for Obama. He is a "liberal"  I have seen that liberals are the first to try and curb "free speech" when it disagrees with the hallowed liberal view. If a liberal can't argue a point they attack the other person. Don't be such a hypocrite.

 Lets talk airplanes Boeing Dreamliners to be exact. Some liberal progressive union pigeon in the Obama administration is trying to send jobs to China instead of North Carolina. That's Obamanomics!! The IDIOT is trying to kill America and you are to stupid to see it.

Have I offended you yet? Good get off your high horse and quit being such a whiner.

I try to keep my opinions neutral in an attempt to be polite. But vasco pulling his smug hypocritical left wing Bull, or should I say Donkey, $#1^ is too much.

The comment about Obamanomics was just a way to frame the factors affecting the environment we fly in. I've owned a small business 30 years as of yesterday June first and I understand the reference.

 Do you understand the absurdity of borrowing you way out of debt? Spending your way to solvency? Obama acts as if he doesn't.