Pilot maintenance signoff.

[Mooneymite]

Can the owner of an aircraft sign off an oil change if he is not a certificated pilot, or must it be done by a certified mechanic?

 

[Bob_Belville]

I'm pretty sure that a private pilot's licence is required if the aircraft is certified but I'll be interested in better informed answers.  

[kortopates]

Yes, you sign the engine log book with an entry done in accordance with 43.9 (a)

Most of us also include that the engine was satisfactorily leak checked as well.

 

 

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[neilpilot]

5 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Yes, you sign the engine log book with an entry

Actually, no you cannot sign off on owner/operator maintenance as an owner, unless you are a certificated pilot or A&P

[Bob_Belville]

6 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Yes, you sign the engine log book with an entry done in accordance with 43.9 (a)

Most of us also include that the engine was satisfactorily leak checked as well.

 

 

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Paul, I think the crux of his question was whether an aircraft owner who does not have a PPL can sign off on work that is permitted to be signed off by pilots. 

[kortopates]

Paul, I think the crux of his question was whether an aircraft owner who does not have a PPL can sign off on work that is permitted to be signed off by pilots. 

Since a pilot owner asked the question, I assumed that even though it wasn't stated specifically. But I probably should have added the pilot signs it with his Pvt or Cml or ATP certificate number in lieu of an A&P as required for any authorized preventative maintenance work done. But yes, as[mention=8913]Bob_Belville[/mention] and[mention=6995] neilpilot[/mention] point out only a pilot owner is authorized to perform preventative maintenance if I misunderstood the intent of the question. Re-reading I see I totally missed - if not a certificated pilot.

 

 

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[Andy95W]

It sounds like Gus knows an airplane owner that doesn't have his license yet but wants to do his own oil changes.

[jaylw314]

I guess the followup question is whether a non-certificated aircraft owner could do preventative maintenance under the supervision of a certificated pilot?  I assume the answer is no, only under the supervision and signoff of an A&P.

And then whether a certificated pilot can perform preventative maintenance on an aircraft he doesn't own?  Assuming, of course, that the owner allows him to That's an interesting one for flight clubs

Edit:

Just to follow up, the phrase from 43.3(g) is

"The holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter."

So I guess a non-owner pilot can do preventative maintenance as long as he "operates" the aircraft?

Edited February 13, 2018 by jaylw314

[kortopates]

FWIW 43.3 (g) spells out only a certificated pilot under part 61 can perform preventative maintenance with the exception of sport pilots without further requirements.


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[RobertGary1]

44 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Yes, you sign the engine log book with an entry done in accordance with 43.9 (a)

Most of us also include that the engine was satisfactorily leak checked as well.

 

 

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You have to have a private pilot certificate number to log it.

 

-Robert

Edited February 13, 2018 by RobertGary1

[RobertGary1]

14 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I

"The holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter."

So I guess a non-owner pilot can do preventative maintenance as long as he "operates" the aircraft?

Yep, this is for the guy working in Alaska who needs to change plugs on the bosses plane away from main base assuming part 91. 135 would be different of course.

 

-Robert

[jaylw314]

1 minute ago, RobertGary1 said:

Yep, this is for the guy working in Alaska who needs to change plugs on the bosses plane away from main base assuming part 91. 135 would be different of course.

 

-Robert

That would suggest the OP's friend could just get one of his pilot buddies to do the maintenance and sign off.  I wonder what would constitute "operate."  Does his buddy need to fly the plane around the pattern before or after?  Does just running up the engine on the ground to do the leak check count?  Or does he even have to do anything?

[kortopates]

That would suggest the OP's friend could just get one of his pilot buddies to do the maintenance and sign off.  I wonder what would constitute "operate."  Does his buddy need to fly the plane around the pattern before or after?  Does just running up the engine on the ground to do the leak check count?  Or does he even have to do anything?

"Operate" is defined in part 1 too
Got to be flying it. I'd say it works for any rental pilot that is trusted to do the work by an owner when stranded away E.g. fouled plug. But good luck, most owners I know in a local club I fly with are not that trusting.

Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to use or authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as provided in §91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the piloting of aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as owner, lessee, or otherwise).


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[jaylw314]

3 minutes ago, kortopates said:

"Operate" is defined in part 1 too
Got to be flying it. I'd say it works for any rental pilot that is trusted to do the work by an owner when stranded away E.g. fouled plug. But good luck, most owners I know in a local club I fly with are not that trusting.

Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to use or authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as provided in §91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the piloting of aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as owner, lessee, or otherwise).


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Nice!  Didn't think "operate" was one of those defined words..

[Bob_Belville]

25 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Nice!  Didn't think "operate" was one of those defined words..

Just about everything is defined. There's some possibility that lawyers are involved in regs. 

[MB65E]

I believe there is an amendment for sport pilots. I need to check. 

 

Not that it matters here. 

-Matt

[Mooneymite]

Thanks!  I guess I'll just have to fly the airplane, do and sign off the oil change for him?

It's a Cherokee.  

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

Thanks!  I guess I'll just have to fly the airplane, do and sign off the oil change for him?

It's a Cherokee.  

Yes, that seems to be the case.  You need to a lap around the pattern anyway to warm up the engine.  Then you'd have to do everything--technically, he wouldn't be allowed to do ANY of the work because you're only allowed to sign off on the work you perform yourself (unlike an A&P).

[RobertGary1]

I’ve advocated for years that if aopa is serious about reducing the cost of flying we really need a limited A&P private certificate.  Can’t work for money, can’t overhaul engines but you can time a mag. Can’t sign off an stc but you could replace donuts on your own. A trimmed down A&P program (maybe partly online) could be done in 1/2 the time. You can eliminate pressurization systems, jet engines etc and just focus on what the private owner needs to do on his piston, unpressurized single. 

Owners have been working on their planes since the dawn of Aviation in various capacities and the stats do not show these planes falling from the sky  

-Robert

[Andy95W]

9 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

 A trimmed down A&P program (maybe partly online) could be done in 1/2 the time.

Owners have been working on their planes since the dawn of Aviation in various capacities and the stats do not show these planes falling from the sky  

 

I disagree with both of the above statements.

About the shortest A&P program I've heard of is 16 months.  How many people will really want to go to night school for 8 straight months, pay probably $10,000+ dollars, and not be allowed to charge for their services?  Those people will continue to argue that they don't really need that much training until they are convinced that a weekend distance learning course is all that they REALLY need to work on airplanes- and some will say even THAT is too much.

And as for owners working on their airplanes not falling from the sky- if that were true, then why are Homebuilt/Experimental accidents due to mechanical failure around double the rate of certificated airplanes?  It would seem the "stats" do not prove your point.

I would not be against expanding the FAA's judgement of what constituted Preventative Maintnenance to include some things like landing gear biscuits, but I think there are simply too many variables to ignore.  I know some guys who've been overhauling VW engines for decades.  Overhauling a Lycoming would be child's play to them.  On the other hand, I also know airplane owners who don't know what a box end wrench is.  I know another guy who has built 3 airplanes but doesn't know how his alternator works.

So I think it should stay like it is.  Owners work on their airplanes and either don't tell anyone or they call over a guy like me, an A&P who will check over your work and IF you're a nice guy and a decent human being, I sign off your simple repair.  We don't have to waste a big shop's time, everything is legal, and my refrigerator gets restocked without my wife seeing the credit card bill.

[Guest]

Further to what Andy is saying, I’d say that more training is required for A&P IA types in the US.  From the questions asked here on behalf of maintainers and the pictures people post of their planes, you guys could use few maintainers but of higher quality.

Clarence

[1964-M20E]

I think there could be some more things that can be added to the list of owner performed maintenance.  I like to put out there I can change the oil, change tires among other things but I can't undo 4 nuts and one 12V wire connection and change a starer????

Would I try to overhaul the prop if I was allowed too most likely no I wouldn't know what I was doing.  However, changing a mag I might attempt that, I would change the boost pump, vacuum pump, governor, among many other things that I feel I am competent to do on my own.  The caveat is I have done many of these items myself under the supervision of an A&P/IA along with every annual has been owner assisted.  So you could say I have had some additional training and I am not an A&P.  Finally, a limited maintainer certificate to do more than the current preventive maintenance on my own plane would be nice.

 

I would not mind overhauling an engine myself with some guidance.  I have overhauled different types of engines in the past.

[HRM]

2 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

I think there could be some more things that can be added to the list of owner performed maintenance.  I like to put out there I can change the oil, change tires among other things but I can't undo 4 nuts and one 12V wire connection and change a starer????

It really speaks to the statistics surrounding AC maintenance, the whole A&P/IA thing and has nothing to do with the attainment of secret or arcane knowledge. 

You propose a good example though, four nuts, a wire connection and a starter. There are complexities to even the simple things--torques that no one would bother with on an automobile engine become critical on an airplane. Wire routing, vibration, things like that, not to mention W&B issues. If the FAA was to go through every airframe and engine available to the GA fleet and list what could  and could not be done by the untrained, it would double the federal government bureaucracy and we don't want that. It's easier just to certify mechanics on blanket techniques under strict rules and thorough licensing and recurrent training procedures. Frankly, the PM-allowed list is almost overly generous in my opinion.

The experimental aircraft category is where the FAA let's her hair down and you have girls gone wild; for example, take a walk on the wild side sometime and take a look at what RV owners do on their aircraft, mind boggling from the certified standpoint.

[ArtVandelay]

For experimentals, isn’t the scope of maintenance owner can perform limited if owner wasn’t the original builder, and just bought the plane?

[Andy95W]

Only the actual builder can perform the condition inspection (which is basically an annual inspection) on their home built airplane, otherwise it has to be a certificated A&P.

The current owner can perform any and all other maintenance he or she wants, to include installing a Dynon or Garmin G3X.