Virginia Accident

[Shadrach]

On 10/10/2017 at 12:38 PM, M20Doc said:

A mildly trained monkey could fly a Mooney, it's not that complex.  

The issue is not lack of training, but a take off with too little runway available for the power/performance of the plane.  With a slightly longer runway none of this thread would be happening and the pilot might only have had a slightly raised heart rate as he cleared the trees.

Clarence

You don't know that the runway was insufficient. It certainly would have been prudent to use the full length (and I am sure that Cooper is kicking himself over being lulled into an intersection take off)  Even topped off, it's likely that they were several hundred pounds under gross with a young man, woman and a 13 month old with bags.  Intersection was 1500' to the threshold, 1600' to the end of the pavement and 2220' to the first single tree.  The DA at the time of the incident was less than 1000'. The It's very likely the airplane had adequate performance margins to get out of that strip even from the intersection, but one would need to use type specific technique which is hard to come by with just a few hours in type.  The best way to do it is clean up the plane immediately, build speed at low AOA once attaining Vx all additional energy is used for altitude.   

piperpainter demonstrates in his C model what looks like a hot dog zoom climb here, but he's really just accelerating as long as possible in a low AOA/low drag attitude before increasing ROC.  Below is an image of the strip where this was clip was shot. 1600' from one end to the terminus at the tall pines...

 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Shadrach

[BradB]

1 hour ago, Cooperd0g said:

I have had a few people ask me and yes, I plan to keep flying GA. My wife is very forgiving and understanding. Plus she really enjoys flying and was super excited to have a plane of our own as we had talked about it for years. Right now I will let the insurance settle out and get everything sorted. 

We also discussed that from now on I will conduct a full brief with her on the plan just as if she was my co-pilot or wingman on a military flight. That way she will know if I'm doing something different and make me justify it. This is our way to mitigate this type of issue from happening again.

@Cooperd0g First, Thank you for your service to our county.  Second, thank you for your service to Mooneyspace.  I agree with an earlier post, If we every meet up, dinner is on me,

Best wishes,

@BradB

N708PJ

[bradp]

Cooperdog thank you for sharing and I’m really glad you and your family are okay.  If people get access to your story and lessons, you’ll have ensured a couple of pilots will live when they otherwise wouldn’t. 

A couple of thoughts:

1) most of our ASIs are inaccurate.  Many have never been overhauled.  I always knew my sweet spot for Landing was 5 mph faster than what I should have been for book and weight.  Reason was it’s off by 5 mph.  Same thing for departure- it wanted another 5 mph before it wanted to fly compared to book.  

2) Excellent post from Shadrach re short field technique in a mooney.  It will perform best at something not Vx.  I’m no expert but the general  principle is maximize lift and minimize drag.  Too much backside of the power curve when it mushes off the runway.  Most of us have experienced an early liftoff and mush. I got it big time when I had a flap retract failure on a go around on a hot summer day requiring some degree of performance but not maximal.  Too much drag and not enough lift.   Cooperdog unfortunately got this when maximal performance was required for the situation. 

Another confined takeoff from the painter  

3) we all have different degrees of thrust for a given airframe/ engine combination.  Old adage is we have 40 year airframes and xxx hundred hour engines and you’ll have variability. None of us are Bill Wheat etc.  Sometimes that variability really matters.  I saw the best example of this I’ve encountered was doing formation flying.  Same model different year or same model same year there were significant performance differences in some planes.  

4) I’ve learned that the most dangerous thing in the aircraft is my family.  They constsntly distract from the business of flying and that can have consequences.  I’m not really a nice person when we’re getting ready to go mostly because I cannot be distracted.  If there is any chatter they get isolated.  It’s because I love them.   That started after I got distracted in a checklist and took off on one mag.  I explained to my wife what happened, took responsibility for it as PIC and asked for her help in minimizing cockpit distractions.  She gets it now and is an active participant in  cockpit safety culture rather than a passenger with a front seat view   

5) I don’t know if this can help anyone else but now I say out loud or silently at the threshold “what can kill me on this takeoff” just before crossing.  That’s my last reminder to check fuel, config, ignition, runway.  Maybe it can help others as well. 

6) W75 is an interesting airport.  Trees are a factor.  I decided against landing there with three adults and an infant, half tanks - even though performance said no problem - in the middle of the winter because it didn’t look / feel right.  Not for landing but for takeoff with that weight / family on board etc. Part of that is I’m a relatively inexperienced pilot - no piperpainter or cooperdog, but sometimes the gut tells us something and we should learn to trust it.  I went around that day and landed at FYJ Middle Peninsula VA and we drove the 30 min to Merroir.  

Again Cooperdog thank you for sharing and participating.  Please ignore some of the less tactful - overall it’s a well meaning group - and all of us can learn something from your experience.   

-Brad 

[Mooney in Oz]

17 hours ago, donkaye said:

"Self Aggrandizement:  The action or process of promoting oneself as being powerful or important."

Couldn't be further from the truth.  Sorry if you misinterpreted my post.  It was all about training and what I perceived was the root cause of this accident. .  From my perspective it had absolutely NOTHING to do about me.

Folks, I also would like to respectfully put my view forward relating to what I also believe to be misinterpretation of Don Kaye's post.  I say this on the basis of having personally met and flown with Don extensively in a demonstrator Mooney Acclaim some years ago when he and other Mooney officials, including the then Mooney CEO Dennis Ferguson visited Australia.   I found Don to be very professional and humble both as a teacher and on a personal level.  I spent quite a lot of time with him and most of our conversations were to do with Mooneys.  I will never know anyone in Australia that has his vast Mooney knowledge and experience.

We have all at some time or another been misinterpreted in either emails or in this wonderful forum of ours as keyboard language is devoid of normal, personal interaction.

 A special thank you to @Cooperd0g for sharing.

Victor. 

[Jim Peace]

On 10/8/2017 at 11:01 PM, Cooperd0g said:

I had enough rudder to keep the nose between the trees. Or I didn't and it was luck. I honestly can't say. It happened pretty fast by that point.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/8d00bd73-7981-4108-b16f-b36098477741

[Mooney in Oz]

Years ago one of our Mooney group members was flying his M20C when the aircraft suffered an engine failure following a sudden loss of oil pressure.  At the time the pilot was flying over suburban Sydney and elected to glide it into a golf course.  He chose a fairway and toward the end, deliberately aimed between two trees that resulted in the removal of both wings and slowed the aircraft enough so that it was able to dissipate the energy and stop before colliding into a row of other trees at the very end of the fairway.  He stepped out of his Mooney (minus both wings) and walked away, much to the dismay of golfers.  The photos were quite amusing.

The cause was found to be a previously unbeknown damaged oil quick drain.  Evidence indicated the engine had possibly been either dropped, hit a floor or another object hard enough prior to install resulting in the damaged quick drain.

Overflying golf courses and noticing how short the fairway lengths are from above, I sometimes wonder whether I would have the skill for such a successful outcome.

Going between the trees carries with it the risk of fire by exposing all that fuel, but ending up into the trees at the end poses more than just a fire risk.  It would be between the trees for me.

Victor

[Gary0747]

Perhaps I am over cautious but I have never flown with people in the back seats and an empty seat in front. I may be driven by some of the old Bill Wheat stories of the Mooney certification test flights where he related to difficulty recovering from stall spin tests with aft CG.   Even within the envelope the recovery is always best with forward CG. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Gary0747
Quoted wrong person for some reason?

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

Perhaps I am over cautious but I have never flown with people in the back seats and an empty seat in front. I may be driven by some of the old Bill Wheat stories of the Mooney certification test flights where he related to difficulty recovering from stall spin tests with aft CG.   Even within the envelope the recovery is always best with forward CG. 

Yeah, but they're faster with aft CG 

[carusoam]

Proof this conversation makes you think...

I accepted an intersection T/O last week. 2k' behind me... a small unease to go with that.

8k' in front of me. Plenty of runway to T/O and land if something went awry.

Made me think anyway...

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

12 hours ago, Shadrach said:

piperpainter demonstrates in his C model what looks like a hot dog zoom climb here, but he's really just accelerating as long as possible in a low AOA/low drag attitude before increasing ROC.  Below is an image of the strip where this was clip was shot. 1600' from one end to the terminus at the tall pines...

Of course he can do that.  His airplane is red, so its faster!  

On a more serious note, I doubt I'll try anything like that.  I certainly don't have that pilot's skill.  But more importantly for me, I really try and stay out of situations where I have to operate on the edge of the envelope to survive the experience.  What I didn't like about what I saw was if the engine isn't up to snuff that day, if a door pops open, if anything happens to wear that aircraft doesn't have the expected performance that fellow could have a  really bad day. Just my two cents.

That said, it make for a really good video!

[Shadrach]

19 minutes ago, steingar said:

Of course he can do that.  His airplane is red, so its faster!  

On a more serious note, I doubt I'll try anything like that.  I certainly don't have that pilot's skill.  But more importantly for me, I really try and stay out of situations where I have to operate on the edge of the envelope to survive the experience.  What I didn't like about what I saw was if the engine isn't up to snuff that day, if a door pops open, if anything happens to wear that aircraft doesn't have the expected performance that fellow could have a  really bad day. Just my two cents.

That said, it make for a really good video!

PP does what he does and it is certainly outside the lines of everyday Mooney ops.  I enjoy short (<2000') strips whether paved or grass.  The upside to these operations is confidence and proficiency, the down side is risk and to a lesser degree maybe a slight loss awareness regarding passenger comfort.  For a while, I had gotten so accustom to maneuvering the Mooney in and out of challenging strips that I had to remind myself that smooth and stable is the highest virtue with passengers.

[Shadrach]

10 hours ago, bradp said:

 It will perform best at something not Vx.   

 

Agree with everything in your post Brad with the exception of the sentence above.  I do not make it a point to climb at Vx or Vy unless there is an operational reason.  If my goal is to clear an obstacle in the take off corridor with as much margin as possible, than I will use VX (ranges from ~90-95mph in my plane at SL depending on weight).  We agree that the best way to get there is not dirty in a high AOA/high drag configuration.  It is easy to mush along at a high AOA and IAS of 70-80 mph on warm day, but there are no rewards. I hold low AOA and raise the gear at positive rate. Very flat climb attitude to Vx then pitch to maintain Vx.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Shadrach

[steingar]

52 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

PP does what he does and it is certainly outside the lines of everyday Mooney ops.  I enjoy short (<2000') strips whether paved or grass.  The upside to these operations is confidence and proficiency, the down side is risk and to a lesser degree maybe a slight loss awareness regarding passenger comfort.  For a while, I had gotten so accustom to maneuvering the Mooney in and out of challenging strips that I had to remind myself that smooth and stable is the highest virtue with passengers.

I would like to be good enough on the stick that I could get into and out of a 2K strip.  That should be plenty for my aircraft.  A 1.5K strip is probably doable, but everything has to work right.  I prefer to have an out in case it doesn't.

[MyNameIsNobody]

2 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

Perhaps I am over cautious but I have never flown with people in the back seats and an empty seat in front. I may be driven by some of the old Bill Wheat stories of the Mooney certification test flights where he related to difficulty recovering from stall spin tests with aft CG.   Even within the envelope the recovery is always best with forward CG. 

Something not right here as I made no mention on CG.  I believe CooperDog made this reply.

[bradp]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Agree with everything in your post Brad with the exception of the sentence above.  I do not make it a point to climb at Vx or Vy unless there is an operational reason.  If my goal is to clear an obstacle in the take off corridor with as much margin as possible, than I will use VX (ranges from ~90-95mph in my plane at SL depending on weight).  We agree that the best way to get there is not dirty in a high AOA/high drag configuration.  It is easy to mush along at a high AOA and IAS of 70-80 mph on warm day, but there are no rewards. I hold low AOA and raise the gear at positive rate. Very flat climb attitude to Vx then pitch to maintain Vx.

Good clarification- I was trying to express the High drag High AOA avoidance.  You did it. 

 

Look at my POH/AFM:

landing gear extended until obstacle cleared.  Nope. That just won’t lead to maximum performance.  

 

[thinwing]

On 10/8/2017 at 6:38 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

You're not alone

Count me in

[thinwing]

On 10/9/2017 at 5:51 AM, M20Doc said:

Unless the runway had a catapult, as a newly minted Mooney pilot you had no business going to that airfield with your family on board.

01

2167x45

2042'

19

2167x45

2167'

Clarence

 

Clarence,he has already categorized his mistakes,your comment is unnecessarily judgemental and redundant 

[thinwing]

On 10/8/2017 at 3:32 PM, ragedracer1977 said:

Looking at the aerial view, I can't even figure out how he managed to pull it off.  It's a 90 degree turn just off the end of the runway.  https://www.google.com/maps/place/400+Eubank+Landing+Rd,+Topping,+VA+23169/@37.6099148,-76.4501188,1239m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89ba0a0441fcfce9:0x74483f9e1449ef47!8m2!3d37.6096439!4d-76.4486899

From the view shown ,it sure looks like a normal water landing was best option

[thinwing]

On 10/8/2017 at 6:09 PM, Hank said:

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE FATAL ACCIDENT! READ MY ACTUAL POST AND STOP PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!!

I gotta fix that Ignore thing fast!

Hank...stop trying..the guys obviously drinking in front of his computer 

[thinwing]

On 10/9/2017 at 9:11 AM, Alan Fox said:

It will affect future insurance rates , As I have been rated for a hail claim (ground)  

Not forever..just 2/3 years or so

[N9201A]

Orionflt wrote:

"In my career in the Navy I have had tower offer intersection take offs numerous times, normally we would accept them and go with out recalculating takeoff performance. we took what we already knew and made a decision."

This is an important statement from which we GA pilots can glean an key "ounce of prevention" ALL of us can apply to our own flying.  The intersections are as certain and known to us as the runway length.  BEFORE stepping to your aircraft, you know what your approximate takeoff distance will be (based on load, temp, DA, etc.).  Use this to do two things:  

1.  Determine a known "abort" point at which "if I am not rotating at takeoff speed, I ABORT" - and STICK TO IT!

2.  Determine (using above info) whether you can accept an intersection takeoff and, if so, which ones - and what your abort point is based on that intersection take-off.

Remember safety > convenience.  I think of this when considering a change in plan;   I have found that having a solid, safe plan makes me more resistant to changing it unless it enhances safety.  Tower requests like intersection takeoff, "expedite," LAHS, etc. are often not a problem, and we all want to play nice.  But if I am surprised by them and haven't thought it through, expect at least a "standby please" while I think about it.

[N9201A]

On 10/9/2017 at 3:29 PM, M20Doc said:

This has been an interesting read, as so many here are.

I wonder how the comments from everyone would differ if we were dissecting a Cirrus that used the CAPS and all survived? Would this pilot be a hero or a zero?

Clarence

 

Perhaps CAPS would have made a positive difference here, but seems unlikely: "Cirrus recommends a minimum deployment height of 580 feet in the latest-generation SR22."  Source: http://www.flyingmag.com/how-it-works-brs-aircraft-parachute

But pulling the handle would certainly have prevented CD from following Hoover's advice to fly it as far into the crash as possible, as he mentions he used what control authority remained (rudder).  

 

[thinwing]

On 10/10/2017 at 6:50 AM, donkaye said:

"Self Aggrandizement:  The action or process of promoting oneself as being powerful or important."

Couldn't be further from the truth.  Sorry if you misinterpreted my post.  It was all about training and what I perceived was the root cause of this accident. .  From my perspective it had absolutely NOTHING to do about me.

Agreed...his Topgun experience didn't really equate with this takeoff in a c Mooney.He flys high performance jets with gobs of excess horsepower.Conducting air superiority maneuvers with Mach capable aircraft with the ability to accelerate vertically while in after burner does not necessarily translate to 180 hp light aircraft operations.I have personally witnessed 2 high time airline pilots takeoff/ground loop accidents while flight testing potential purchases.These were air transport pilots with tens of thousands of hours of experience,but as Don points out no transition.We have also discussed another non fatal accident with a military pilot running out of fuel and landing in an orchard 1 mile north of intended landing at Harris ranch.That pilot also added his mea culpa...he thought he had enough fuel....lessons learned and Thankyou to both Naval pilots for their honesty...

[Hank]

1 hour ago, thinwing said:

Hank...stop trying..the guys obviously drinking in front of his computer 

It's alright, I got him ignored. Can't even see the thread he started about lift and drag.  

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, thinwing said:

Agreed...his Topgun experience didn't really equate with this takeoff in a c Mooney.He flys high performance jets with gobs of excess horsepower.Conducting air superiority maneuvers with Mach capable aircraft with the ability to accelerate vertically while in after burner does not necessarily translate to 180 hp light aircraft operations.I have personally witnessed 2 high time airline pilots takeoff/ground loop accidents while flight testing potential purchases.These were air transport pilots with tens of thousands of hours of experience,but as Don points out no transition.We have also discussed another non fatal accident with a military pilot running out of fuel and landing in an orchard 1 mile north of intended landing at Harris ranch.That pilot also added his mea culpa...he thought he had enough fuel....lessons learned and Thankyou to both Naval pilots for their honesty...

Maybe his topgun experience was not fully relevant but his general stick and rudder skill once the error decisions were made certainly must have helped to salvage a survival and happy ending.  Thank goodness.  He said he felt the initial stall and reacted by lowering the nose.  Then he felt a second stall and falling away to one wing. He must have reacted properly to that too as the airplane did not fall to that one wing and nose dive to the ground.  He clearly must have contacted the ground still under control with wings level and nose level.

I am remembering an accident that occurred at a nearby airport in our sleepy little rural neck of the woods, about 3 or 4 years ago, in Lake Placid.  A relatively new pilot who had a brand new to him Mooney  ended up in a go around which in an untrimmed condition, the airplane went straight up, stalled and then spun to the ground with all 3 on board died.  That did not need to happen and I suppose it was that last piece, the quick reaction to correct it, the airplane flying itself into a bad part of the envelope due to the trim position for landing but under full power for go around, that  surprised the pilot who did not have the quick reaction/stick and rudder habits to immediately correct before it got out of hand.  I don't mean to be knocking on that poor fellow or his passengers.  Just trying to learn from it and contrasting to this accident last week, where something did go right, even if many things went wrong.