Commercial ticket in a Mooney. Thread and instructor search.

[bradp]

Hi all-

I just landed in North Carolina and am looking to do a commercial ticket this summer. 

First - there are some old threads about using the Mooney for the checkride- which I'd be interested in doing.  I found the following threads that reference speeds and power settings in the various models: 

 

Second - does anyone know of a good instructor who would be able to demonstrate / teach the commercial maneuvers in a Mooney in the RDU area.  I'm going to talk to the flying club down at TTA (they have three J models) first as they do instruction as well.  

Any advice would be appreciated.  Thanks!

-Brad

[Oldguy]

You can go to http://themooneyflyer.com and check out their e-zine which lists instructors by state in the rear of the magazine.

If you have not taken a Mooney PPP, it would be good as they cover all of the various settings for different flight segments. Not sure about commercial maneuvers, but worth a look at them. Check them out at http://www.mapasafety.com/.

[RobertGary1]

No reason not to. A couple decades ago I took my commercial, CFI and CFII rides in my Mooney.

 

-Robert

[jlunseth]

I took my commercial in my 231 and several of us here have done it in their Mooney.  I will say it is probably more interesting than doing it in a Slowhawk or Warrior or Archer for a couple of reasons.  The speeds are higher and you have quite a bit more power, so some of the maneuvers to stall or approaching (i.e. the chandelle, or the Lazy -8s) are a little more intimidating at first.  But in the end it is a nothing.  You will learn a heck of alot about your plane.  The steep spiral and Power Off 180 are maneuvers meant to get you safely to the ground in an emergency. Practicing them gives you a very good knowledge of your aircraft's envelope and what it takes to bring it down safely with an engine out.  Doing it in a different aircraft with a very different best glide is not going to help you if you ever need to do the maneuver in your Mooney. 

Go for it.

We have had threads on power settings, etc. for commercial.  You can probably find them.  But IMHO you should establish your own power settings in your own aircraft.  It is the speeds that are most important.  So for example, for 8's on pylons you need to figure out a pivotal altitude that works for you.  Pivotal altitude is determined by a formula where the necessary speed is determined by the altitude you pick.  Figure out what pivotal altitude you like and then find the power setting that gives you that speed at that altitude.  Its basically the same with steep turns, Lazy-8's, etc.  You need to figure out what speed you want to do the maneuver at, or start it at, and then figure out what power setting will give you that speed.  A "bust" is exceeding the required speed by more or less than an allowed amount, usually +/- 10 kts.  

The power setting needed to establish your desired speed for a maneuver may vary somewhat from day to day, it is important to figure that out so on a given day, if you want 100 kts. for a steep turn, you can get 100 kts. and not 105 or 95.  Also, you will probably find as I did that Mooney's are very slick and you probably need to make a power setting and then give the aircraft a little time to settle in at the speed you want, or you will have the airframe accelerating during the maneuver and you will bust it.  For example, on most days 24.5 MP and 2450 should give me 120 kts. in level, low altitude flight (not in the cruising altitudes).  If I get the plane going straight and level and then put in that setting and start a maneuver right away, the plane might still be accelerating and you might start the maneuver at 110.  If, during the maneuver, it continues to accelerate to a level flight speed of 120kts., you are going to bust.  

So focus on figuring out the speeds, that is the important part.

[aviatoreb]

I did my commercial in my Mooney Rocket, 231.  I have no aspirations of hanging up my day job and doing banner towing.  Or crop dusting.  I took the commercial ticket because a) it was fun, b ) I wanted to improve my flying...in the machine I fly in. So for both of those reasons, why not do it in my own airplane?

[N201MKTurbo]

I did mine in my Mooney. Any other airplane would have felt weird.

Then I did my Commercial Multi two weeks later in Turbo Seneca II. I couldn't wait to get back in my Mooney. What an awful airplane!

[peevee]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I did my commercial in my Mooney Rocket, 231.  I have no aspirations of hanging up my day job and doing banner towing.  Or crop dusting.  I took the commercial ticket because a) it was fun, b ) I wanted to improve my flying...in the machine I fly in. So for both of those reasons, why not do it in my own airplane?

I'm not crazy about the idea of someone doing the comm. maneuvers in a turbo, well, my turbo anyway. It's a bit hard on the engine. It's cheaper to pay to use the flight schools beater arrow anyway.

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, peevee said:

I'm not crazy about the idea of someone doing the comm. maneuvers in a turbo, well, my turbo anyway. It's a bit hard on the engine. It's cheaper to pay to use the flight schools beater arrow anyway.

True - but I don't think it's that bad - most of the maneuvers are pretty low power - and anyway it was not like a school was training commercial students again and again in my plane - it was just me - and for like 6 months it served as yet another way to keep the bird flying regularly.

Edited August 3, 2017 by aviatoreb

[Bennett]

I did my Commercial in my 261 conversion. Glad I did so as I once had an emergency and used the Commercial Spiral to get me down through the clouds (I was at FL230 in IMC when the emergency started). Being familiar with that maneuver in the same airplane I trained in was a confidence builder. All worked out fine as I broke out at about 3000' and made it to a paved airport.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[peevee]

35 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

True - but I don't think it's that bad - most of the maneuvers are pretty low power - and anyway it was not like a school was training commercial students again and again in my plane - it was just me - and forblike 6 months it served as yet another way to keep the bird flying regularly.

It's just the touch and goes and power changes.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

It's just the touch and goes and power changes.

You don't need to do touch and goes - as a rule in my airplane I do full stop landings in my mooney I'd training landings.

there are maneuvers with changing power but is not like aerobatics jamming the throttle back and forth.

[peevee]

19 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

You don't need to do touch and goes - as a rule in my airplane I do full stop landings in my mooney I'd training landings.

there are maneuvers with changing power but is not like aerobatics jamming the throttle back and forth.

Still a lot of landings and the resulting takeoffs.

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, peevee said:

Still a lot of landings and the resulting takeoffs.

There are not a lot of landings as part of commercial maneuvers as far as I remember - mostly you need to master the spot landing - so that quickly and you are talking one afternoon of landings.  Assuming you have well mastered private pilot skills by now / this part goes quickly.  Way way lessvlandibgs than the private license.  Mostly it's air work.

[peevee]

8 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

There are not a lot of landings as part of commercial maneuvers as far as I remember - mostly you need to master the spot landing - so that quickly and you are talking one afternoon of landings.  Assuming you have well mastered private pilot skills by now / this part goes quickly.  Way way lessvlandibgs than the private license.  Mostly it's air work.

There are still quite a few. And a lot of config and rapid lower setting changes, especially in the stalls. Aot of low and slow ground reference work as well.ess of an issue in a rocket, more of an issue in a Mooney with worse cooling.

[N201MKTurbo]

I just told the examiner that I needed to let the engine cool down slowly and he was cool with that. I told him I was going to do the spiral at 12 inches instead of idle and he was cool with that. He respected the fact that I didn't want to abuse the plane. That is how a commercial pilot should act.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

There are still quite a few. And a lot of config and rapid lower setting changes, especially in the stalls. Aot of low and slow ground reference work as well.ess of an issue in a rocket, more of an issue in a Mooney with worse cooling.

Quite - its clearly a matter of choice for the owner, and pilot in command, which when they are the same person.  I can see making the choice reasonably either way.

[Danb]

Much rather do it in your own plane which should fit you like a glove, got my ratings in 1986 in a 201, best way I know how to merge the pilot and plane.

[82Mike]

I did my CFI and commercial in my J, it worked well.  The lack of brakes is a little issue on CFI, but my DPE was fine with it.

[RobertGary1]

On 8/12/2017 at 7:46 AM, 82Mike said:

I did my CFI and commercial in my J, it worked well.  The lack of brakes is a little issue on CFI, but my DPE was fine with it.

Yes, the FAA sent out a letter that its the discretion if the DPE is comfortable operating the brakes.

My insurance broker had be send a letter to my underwriter letting them know I would be PIC from the right seat. Otherwise they are inclined to assume the left seat was PIC after an accident and would require them to meet the open pilot warranty.

 

-Robert 

[bradp]

Well this is fortuitous... on field the flying club has three M20s.  They use those planes for their complex and commercials.  With that comes a few instructors who know the entry speeds and can demonstrate the maneuvers in more than an arrow.  So i got that going for me.... which is nice. 

[bradp]

I wanted to dig up this thread-  despite training out of three Moonies, and me waiting for about 6 months for an instructor to open up, the flying club 500 yards from my hangar has no discernible interest in spending time training in an other-owned aircraft.  Oh well. 

Anyone have an leads on an instructor in the general vicinity (TTA, HRJ, SCR, BUY) who has mooney experience?  Unfortunately the back of the Mooney flyer has Sox and co in Virginia as the nearest transition instructors.   

Thanks for your help! 

Brad 

[AlexLev]

I want to do my CPL in the Mooney too but am currently overhauling the engine. What's a good period before being able to do the CPL maneuvers and not harm the freshly overhauled engine? 50 hours? 100?

[jlunseth]

I did my commercial in my turbo 231 and managed not to hurt anything.  It is a little more challenging in the 231, you can’t just firewall the throttle to get a full power setting or you will overboost the engine.  I would highly recommend a Mooney specific instructor.  If you can’t find one and must use a local, non-Mooney instructor, I would get some time with a Mooney instructor before your checkride.  Speed control is very important in the CPL, and Mooneys are not the kind of aircraft that just wants to instantly slow down when you pull the throttle back.  The maneuver I found challenging until I got with Bruce Jaeger was the Lazy8s.  When you read descriptions of the manuever it sounds like you just point the nose up and then at the peak you point it down again.  Do that with a Mooney, at least the later model Mooneys, J and subsequent, and you will bust your speed at the bottom.  The Mooney just gains too much speed in the descent.  You need to let the aircraft fall, which is different, and a Mooney instructor can show you how.

[gsxrpilot]

I've put a local CFI/A&P on my insurance mainly so he can move the plane or test fly it because of maintenance.  I mentioned to him the other day that if he's flying the plane, he should try his commercial maneuvers and see if he can work out the speeds/power settings to do them properly in my 252. If he can, then he can show me how to do them. I've been up with another very experienced CFI but without any Mooney experience and he really struggled with the maneuvers himself and therefore couldn't really teach me how to do them. 

A good Mooney instructor such as Mike, Lee or Don would certainly simplify the process.

[Browncbr1]

I’d make sure your engine will be good and broken in before doing anything else.   The commercial maneuvers for my F were best accomplished at about 22” 2400...   but you’ll be on and off power a bunch between maneuvers like chandel, 1080 spiral, etc.   I’ve done ppl, ir, and commercial in my F..  it’s fine to do in a mooney..   the mooney won’t really do lazy 8s by the book though.  You have to feed in rudder to make it come around enough to square up for going the other way.  Don’t forget the landings on the commercial checkride are spot landings.