Possible Trade Up Opinions

[FlyFstr]

I owned an airplane that had a gear up it was no problem to me. In fact ,unless you looked at the logs you'd never know.

However, when it comes time to sell, the mention of damage history will ALWAYS come up, regardless of how many years ago, or who did the repair. 

I'd buy another bird with damage history if 1) it's at the right price, 2) properly repaired and documented. But I also know that when I sell, there is a smaller audience for birds with damage history.

If the market is good for sellers this may not  be as big of big problem. If it's a buyers market, it could take some time and the price will really play a role.

Assume you find two very nice looking airplanes that are priced the same, both well maintained, hours about the same, etc. but one has damage history. Which one are you going to favor?

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I too am looking for a trade-up.  Aren't we all at least "looking?"

My 'want' list includes these items:

• 
  
• strong turbocharged engine
  
  
• pressurized
  
• FIKI
  
• modern aircraft with modern avionics
  
  

I am not debating upgrading my "C" to an "F" or a "J" or 252 as none of those will give the step up in travel I seek.  Too bad there is no modern Mooney M22 -- wait, there is, the Piper Mirage, and there are excellent ones out there for under $500K.    It costs a lot to make an airplane exchange so don't make too small a step when you do finally do so.  

 

 

 

[LFOD]

Quote: allsmiles

Considering today's economic climate the asking price for this particular airplane is absurd!  

[Jeff_S]

Quote: LFOD

Thank you, someone finally said it with me. Seller is out of his mind. 

[PTK]

No argument there.  Ofcourse we all want our airplanes to hold their high values.  This is done by taking proper care of our airplanes so they will RETAIN their inherent value.  It is NOT done by dreaming and wishing to sell a damaged airplane at an absurd asking price.  Value cannot be re-created out of a damaged airframe.  IMO a seriously damaged airplane has no value in ANY market at any price.  And yes a gear up is major damage my friend!  How did the airplane hit the ground? Did a wing strike the down first? Anyone can claim to repair anything. The aluminum may have been repaired but there is no way of knowing the damage or stress the structure has suffered.   The only way to be sure is to totally strip aluminum off and inspect the structure, or buy a NDH airplane!  I will never put my wife and kids in an airplane that I as pilot in command know it has had major damage.  Would anybody?

 

[rorythedog]

Quote: allsmiles

Especially I don't care what Garrison says.  Would you trust a used car salesperson?

[PTK]

It never ceases to amaze me how some of us have been so brainwashed by Mooney "pseudo-experts" to accept and believe that damage history is somehow OK.  This is of epidemic proportions.  HISTORY is all the buyer has when considering an airplane purchase! The plane's HISTORY. That's all! Maintenance history and damage history. How was the airplane maintained and has it ever been majirly damaged.  Look at these historical records and don't be blinded by some "expert" who will say anything as long as he makes the sale! The best expert is the pilot owner of the airplane.  We all know how well we maintain our Mooneys and if we cut corners or not. IMO reputable MSC's are worth their weight in gold when it comes to value retention through proper maintenance.

[Vref]

Quote: allsmiles

Value cannot be re-created out of a damaged airframe.  IMO a seriously damaged airplane has no value in ANY market at any price.  And yes a gear up is major damage my friend!  How did the airplane hit the ground? Did a wing strike the down first? Anyone can claim to repair anything. The aluminum may have been repaired but there is no way of knowing the damage or stress the structure has suffered.   The only way to be sure is to totally strip aluminum off and inspect the structure, or buy a NDH airplane!  I will never put my wife and kids in an airplane that I as pilot in command know it has had major damage.  Would anybody?

 

[Cruiser]

Wow! You certainly feel strongly about your position. You may be in the minority, and by all means, stay there. I am NOT going to try to persuade you.

However, when I bought my Mooney, I had a very, very reputable, well know MSC do the pre-purchase inspections. Yes, plural because the NDH plane I had them look at first was so poorly maintained they "RECOMMENDED" that I not purchase it. The second one, with damage over 10 years old, was given two thumbs up with very favorable comments.

If you automatically exclude previously damaged airframes you may be passing up a much better plane than those without a history.

[Carl S]

If I were to sell my 94 MSE or sell shares in it I would start the value out $170K.  Yep, that is certianly in the M20K territory and close to some Mooneys that came out after mine did. I may be absurd, crazy, or the like but I have a certian pride of ownership and if that price were to scare off some buyers looking for the cheapest plane out there -- so be it. I don't need to waste my time answering those phone calls anyway.

-Carl

[Vref]

Quote: Cruiser

Wow! You certainly feel strongly about your position. You may be in the minority, and by all means, stay there. I am NOT going to try to persuade you.

[fantom]

Quote: N223MM

If I were to sell my 94 MSE or sell shares in it I would start the value out $170K. 

[jax88]

I'm hearing you guys, all of you.  While I tend to have the opinion that any damage, if repaired properly and proven over time, is something than can be overcome, I also understand that should I try to sell the aircraft, a potential buyer may not feel the same way.

I'm also catching on to the bang for the buck argument.  Why should I drop more on a J than it would cost me to bring the F I currently have up to peak performance and comfort?

Is the following aircraft an example of one of those in the same price range that offers more bang for the buck? (rhetorical question).  Anyone know anything about its history?

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20M-BRAVO/1994-MOONEY-M20M-BRAVO/1192573.htm?

[LFOD]

Now you are talking. The biggest issue with that aircraft is the lack of a modern IFR GPS. I have a feeling in about a month, you will be able to get a 430 pretty cheap. Obviously, I have no idea what the mechanical condition of the plane is, but there are plenty of great shops in FL that can look at it for you. 

[rob]

I recently dropped a bundle of money into upgrading my 65C's Avionics (Aspen/430/SL30/etc). I now have a plane with a gear up in it's past (previous owner) and a pretty well appointed panel. For the money I spent, I could have gone to a lower end J, or a nice F without a problem.

I have no regrets. I knew that if I upgraded the plane I already owned, I'd still know the airframe. I don't have any more "secrets" to discover. The plane (damage history and all) is up to snuff and I know it like the back of my hand. I'm glad I didn't have to encounter the transactional costs of selling and buying a new plane. I'm glad I'm not discovering hidden issues in an airplane anymore.

I'd do it exactly the same if I had to do it over.

[PTK]

I know I am in the minority.  Even if you are a minority of one the truth is the truth!  Everything great and intelligent is in the minority!  Lets say you have 100 damaged airplanes flying and one poor soul drops out of the sky. What do we say, 99 are OK!?  Its like the man who drowned crossing a river with an average depth of 6 inches! The problem with statistics is that they only apply to the population not the poor individual.  

We are all proud of our airplanes.  If we wern't we would own a boat or something! But we need to stay in touch with reality.  An airplane's value is not directly linked of how proud we are as owners!  It is linked on how well we take care of it over time so it can retain its inherent value.   

[John Pleisse]

Vref-you are dead on. Only if I were a competent A&P would I buy a damaged airplane. Show of hands all of you not adverse to purchasing a damged aircraft, how many of you actually own one (other than the "C" owner in Philly)? Was that a pin drop?

11% deduct, but the popular rub is time since damage. This is inconsequential.....gear up, start at an 11% deduct.

[Mcstealth]

Quote: fantom

 That's the only reason keeping me from a TBM-850

[fantom]

Quote: Mcstealth

 That's the only reason keeping me from a TBM-850

[jlunseth]

Quote: jerry-N5911Q

I too am looking for a trade-up.  Aren't we all at least "looking?"

My 'want' list includes these items:

strong turbocharged engine

pressurized

FIKI

modern aircraft with modern avionics

I am not debating upgrading my "C" to an "F" or a "J" or 252 as none of those will give the step up in travel I seek.  Too bad there is no modern Mooney M22 -- wait, there is, the Piper Mirage, and there are excellent ones out there for under $500K.    It costs a lot to make an airplane exchange so don't make too small a step when you do finally do so.    

[jax88]

Quote: jlunseth

 This is the category I am in also, although I don't feel strongly about the aircraft being pressurized.  What I have read of the specs on the Mirage, the pressurization does not help that much, max about 8000 feet difference between outside pressure and cabin pressure, so I think to fly in the flight levels you would still need supplemental O2.

Having done a fair amount of cross country travel in my 231, I think FIKI is a must and a turbo is a must, or you are just too much at the mercy of the weather.  You definitely need the ability to top out over icing. The Bravo and Acclaim are also great candidates, but the useful load could be better.  As for the Avionics, the safety upgrade in flying with Sat WX, a good WAAS GPS, and a moving map of some kind is just to great to settle for less. 

The issue with cross country travel over long distances is that there is invariably going to be some weather somewhere along the way. If you are stepping up for the purpose of frequent cross country travel, the candidates would be the Malibu, the Bravo and Acclaim, and the Bonanza 36 TC series in my view. 

[jlunseth]

The turbo Cessna would be good also.  I just do not know much about them.  I have a cousin who had one and liked it.  My perception is that they are not particularly efficient (speed per gallon), and I do not like the gear (Cessa shimmy).  I understand they are a load hauler though.

[flight2000]

Quote: jax88

Just curious, how does a Cessna P210 fit your mission?  I noticed it wasn't on your list.