MarkusRiedel Posted June 11, 2017 Report Posted June 11, 2017 Hello Mooney Bravo Community, a group of friends and I are thinking of buying the following Bravo in Germany and operate it in Germany, around Munich: https://www.aircraft24.com/search/search-singleprop.htm?SHOW_AD_ID=127547&showpage=3&dosearch=1&SEARCH_ADTYPE_ID=P&SEARCH_COUNTRY_ID=DE|AT|CH|IT|FR|SE|NL|ES|UK|LU|BE|DK|PT|FI|CY&SEARCH_CURRENCY_ID=USD&SEARCH_PRICEMAX=320000&SEARCH_YEARMIN=2004&SEARCH_ORDERBY=AD_PRICEEUR&numresults=38 Our mission profile will be: getting our IFR license on our "own" plane and then travel in Europe - especially from Munich to the South over the Alps with a MVA of 17.000ft 1. We would highly appreciate some thoughts on the plane by experienced mooney pilots 2. Especially thoughts on the price are interesting for us as we can only hardly validate it 3. Could you also tell us how much the cost of the 2000h engine overhault will be roughly? We have heard prices from 35.000 $ - 65.000 $ for a new engine. 4. We have also understood that the G1000 combination with the 55x autopilot is not ideal - but should it stop us from buying? Also, the 5. If there is a bravo (or Mooney Ovation) pilot from Germany around, we surely would be highly interested in getting in touch - especially regarding a service company in the south of Germany... 6. An estimate on all costs would be welcome (100h, annual etc.) Thanks in advance for any feedback and safe landings Markus Quote
Danb Posted June 11, 2017 Report Posted June 11, 2017 Markus seems like a nice plane priced properly. I also own a 2005 BravoGX, Many pilots who don't have A G1000 are the one's with problems with them, I personally feel it's an awesome setup, the cost of the plane reflects the decreased value of not having WAAS of ADSB, now both are available, I didn't do the WAAS upgrade yet but did the ADSB. The couple who upgraded to WAAS. seem pleased. Since the cost is reduced for the upgrades I'd give the plane strong consideration is the prepurchase come out ok. As you mentioned the same overhaul is expensive, your numbers are close. Set aside $50k Ive had the Bravo since 2006, minimal issues with the plane, I'd still buy another BRAVOGX. The G1000 with STEC IMHO s great, may not be a good as the Garmin set up but still a high performer. No way would it stop the purchase if priced correctly. My 11 annuals approximate $5000 per year, all being done at quality MSC,s. Good luck, real nice looking Mooney Quote
carusoam Posted June 11, 2017 Report Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) Welcome aboard, Markus. We have a few MSers based in Europe. A while ago, the ADSB and WAAS update issues for the G1000 were real challenges. It took some serious time to have the updates defined and become available. A Turbo long body makes a great IFR platform. Two things that are often discussed around here are Pre-purchase inspections and Transition training. One is a way to protect your wallet, the other is a way to protect your hide. For comparison purposes... All American Aircraft, a US based Mooney Aircraft seller, lists their inventory on line. If you were to buy one in TX, you would need to add all the costs to travel including relocating the plane... Just for comparison... https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1 Check the lycoming website. They may list sales prices for their OH and factory remanufactured engines. Check the details closely to make sure the Turbo is included in the price. I bought my O at AAA.... no other relationship. Factory reman with Continental... Good luck with your search. Best regards, -a- Edited June 11, 2017 by carusoam Quote
MarkusRiedel Posted June 11, 2017 Author Report Posted June 11, 2017 Thank you guys very much for your thoughts - all highly interesting! All highly interesting! I have heard that the waas/egnos upgrade is US$25,000 which seems quite impressive given the fact that we have only a few airports in Europe that have LPV approaches with lower minimums then the vnav approach. Has anyone ever had a bravo maintained in Europe or better in Germany? And: how comfortable is it to where the oxygen masks. as the bravo really outperforms at above 10,000 feet I assume we will be wearing these a lot ... Sorry for all the questions, but I am very curious and enthusiastic about the topic Quote
mpg Posted June 11, 2017 Report Posted June 11, 2017 since youre looking,,, please consider this... 94 Mooney M20M: TKS, GTN750. This Week Only By WorldWiseTrade, 2 hours ago Quote
carusoam Posted June 11, 2017 Report Posted June 11, 2017 Use the search box in the top right corner for oxygen mask there are so many details to select from. Including O2D2, oxyarm and other things... Did you see the link today, of somebody selling their Bravo? @WorldWiseTrade... something to compare to what you are looking at.... Best regards, -a- Quote
MarkusRiedel Posted June 11, 2017 Author Report Posted June 11, 2017 Thank you, yes, I did, but we are only considering G 1000 (or G 500) equipped airplanes ... Quote
Awful_Charlie Posted June 12, 2017 Report Posted June 12, 2017 Hi Markus I run a Bravo out of Habsheim (LFGB) just over the border, albeit an older (pre-G1000) one. It is on the US register, and I have a local A&P/IA who does my heavy maintenance, the small stuff I do myself. I'm currently at 2100 hours TTAF&E and looking forward to the overhaul in another hundred (or three) hours. It will certainly do what you want - I do a few trips a year straight over the alps - I might even have my EASA IRI soon too! (already have a CRI, so if you need EASA turbo/oxygen signoffs..) Sometime later in the year I'll be over to Straubing for some more avionics and panel work, but it you want to get in touch in the meantime, send me a PM with your e-mail or phone number. Ben Quote
LANCECASPER Posted June 12, 2017 Report Posted June 12, 2017 3 hours ago, MarkusRiedel said: Thank you, yes, I did, but we are only considering G 1000 (or G 500) equipped airplanes ... The G1000 and G500 panels are vastly different. The G1000 is part of the Type Certificate. If later on you decide to put something else in the panel, you can't. The G500 is an aftermarket glass panel replacement of the analog gauges. Later if something else comes along that you like better you can change it over. Quote
donkaye, MCFI Posted June 12, 2017 Report Posted June 12, 2017 I've had my Bravo for 25 years. Been through one engine replacement in 2004. At that time my all in cost for a remain installed with all new hoses and refurbished engine mount was $65,000 with the engine costing $50,000. Expect a new remain now to be in the neighborhood of $60,000 plus remove and replace plus new hoses and refurbished mount. So I'd plan on spending $75,000 if you want a reman. For an overhauled engine figure about $7,000 less. I wanted the zero time engine so went with the reman. Yearly annual typically runs about $6,000 at a Mooney Service Center if you don't have anything major wrong. The proper inspection alone is supposed to take 31 hours. The G1000 airplanes are great as long as they belong to someone else. I like the option of being able to upgrade my panel to my liking when I want. As mentioned above you cannot do that with a G1000 airplane. You are at the mercy of Mooney and Garmin. I did update my panel 3 years ago, and I think it is still a state of the art certified airplane--not one legacy instrument. And there is a lot going on behind that panel like Stormscope, GTS 800 Active Traffic, GMA35c audio panel, GDL 69A, GDL88, FS 210, FS 510, GAD 43e AP interface with Altitude Preselect and DME. A dream panel to fly behind. The only thing that would be nice to have is the GFC 700 Garmin AP. With it there would be no need to adjust altitude with altimeter setting changes. 4 Quote
Bravoman Posted June 12, 2017 Report Posted June 12, 2017 I got a factory reman just last year. I wasn't able to get the 5k lycoming discount because my first run (original) engine was non operational. Came to about 63k purchased through Airpower in Dallas. Came close to 70k for install and all the trimmings. A brand new engine for the Bravo is about 93k last I checked. Quote
MarkusRiedel Posted June 12, 2017 Author Report Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) wow, the OH is getting more and more expensive...70k? And I guess it won't be any cheaper in Germany with all the shipping... but actually with 2000h tbo and estimated 150h on the plane p.a. it seems acceptable...and who know what the OH will cost in 10 years Edited June 12, 2017 by MarkusRiedel Quote
Godfather Posted June 12, 2017 Report Posted June 12, 2017 Also it takes a long time for the case and crank to be checked with current backlogs. Figure with R&R and shipping your plane could be down for 3+ months. That is why many individuals go with the reman/new option to speed things along. Quote
WorldWiseTrade Posted June 13, 2017 Report Posted June 13, 2017 Don, That is the most perfect panel I've EVER seen in a G/A single! Love the G-500 and you are absolutely correct, the stuff behind the panel is key. Nice job! Agree on the G1000. When they go down, it's not a component repair it's always a major overhaul! Not well suited to G/A. Love the aspect ratio on the G500's vs Aspen, I am blind after looking at those skinny things. I'm so sorry that you do have to adjust your altitude occasionally ;-). Perhaps you need a co-pilot to monitor! Happy Flying! Quote
WorldWiseTrade Posted June 13, 2017 Report Posted June 13, 2017 TIO 540 AF1B Airpower prices today (6-2017) are: Factory overhaul $58,854 Reman $65,354 New $101,000 (est) All assumes a good core in exchange. Core is valued at $27,000. I believe Reman has exhaust kit included which can easily be $5K, overhaul does not. Add for hoses, engine mounts, baffle work if required, alternators, and extra labor. Best O/H price I found anywhere was with Airmark. 1 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted June 13, 2017 Report Posted June 13, 2017 34 minutes ago, WorldWiseTrade said: I believe Reman has exhaust kit included which can easily be $5K, overhaul does not. Add for hoses, engine mounts, baffle work if required, alternators, and extra labor. Best O/H price I found anywhere was with Airmark. None of the three options include an exhaust kit. However all three options include new or rebuilt accessories (mags, ignition harness, starter, alternators, fuel servo, turbo/wastegate). Overhaul is the time to send off the exhaust system for a rebuild. All new hoses for this engine are over $3000. http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/TLEngineDetail.asp?catID=33&prodID=10267 Quote
carusoam Posted June 13, 2017 Report Posted June 13, 2017 Also a good time to look into the four blade MT prop for sound related issues in Europe.... Best regards, -a- Quote
donkaye, MCFI Posted June 13, 2017 Report Posted June 13, 2017 53 minutes ago, WorldWiseTrade said: Don, That is the most perfect panel I've EVER seen in a G/A single! Love the G-500 and you are absolutely correct, the stuff behind the panel is key. Nice job! Thank you. I spent months researching everything on the market and reading all the manuals--even to things I didn't buy like the JPI 930. The MVP 50 is just a better product for my needs. My avionics guru spent a month putting together the wiring diagrams to interface everything properly, then did the install single handedly except for installing the "antenna farm". Everything worked perfectly the first time. My only issue, and still is to a very limited extent, is the GAD43e AP interface and that is not his fault. Notice how he even put in the ESI 2000 so the horizon matched the G500. Since the picture, I swapped out the ESI 2000 for the ESI 500 and the GTX 330ES for the GTX 335. I wanted the Navigation of the ESI 500 and the display of the GTX 335. I also added the Alpha Systems AOA. Even the latest Acclaims off the line can't do everything this panel does. Quote
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