First Time Buyer Living Out West Looking For Advice!

[Hank]

I routinely fly my C at 8500-10,500 in the hot, humid, muggy Southeast, especially when crossing the Appalachians [more often on a N-S course than E-W . . .). She gets there, even when ground temps and humidity are in the mid-90's, which puts runway temps well over 100. But I rarely [never?] have the need for high climb rates up high, as the highest peak east of the Big River is ~6800 msl and I try to stay away from it [Mt. Mitchell in W. NC]. Sometimes creative routing is required over areas like southern WV or W. NC when the weather is not so nice and icing may be around, but even there, MEAs run into the 7000' range and I still climb well there.

But my DA is rarely above 3000' at departure . . . Living and flying around the intermountain West, a turbo is a handy thing. My plane will do it, when required, but a turbo will do it just about any time. There is no replacement for displacement, but a turbo sure makes a valiant effort!

[Jerry 5TJ]

Even at the MEA there are big rocks nearby when west of Denver's longitude. 

This was taken at 13,000 over Wyoming last September.   No problem on a clear smooth morning. 

In the T210 I would probably have flown at 17,000.  In the P46T likely at FL270.   

 

  .  

 

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Jerry 5TJ

[bonal]

5 hours ago, thinwing said:

Very photogenic....of course not taken this year !Looks like your right down in the dirt and those little puffy clouds say bouncy ride.

Was late June last summer mid afternoon peaks were 10 to 11 thousand we were at a happy 12.5 and not a single bump in the air could have gone to 14.5 easy but  climbing higher  would not have been much help with an engine out only would have just given me more time to kiss my ass good by sometimes there are no good choices no matter how high you are. But was spotting options for forced landing all the way through.  And yes very scenic mountains. As for the OP fine to have more of everything in fact why not just buy a Citation and cruise at FL35 all I'm saying is western mountain flying is doable even in our C.

[KLRDMD]

8 hours ago, SkyDweller said:

Most people have absolutely no idea how hot and humid it gets in the Mojave Desert in the summer!  And, like KLRDMD so aptly pointed out, "the rocks are high too".  Maintenance for a K looks like it will be substantially more money according to the linked article below, but performance looks considerably better as well...especially in the area I would need it the most; climbs.  I'd hate to spend $100K on a J and have it perform like a dog over the desert. If I lived almost anywhere else in the country, the J would be a no-brainer.
http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20K231 Eval Files/M20K231_Eval.htm

That article is quite old and based on running an engine the way (I hope) few do today, 75% power and 50º ROP.  If you run 65% power lower or less, and especially LOP I doubt you'll see a significant increase in maintenance over a J model. Yes the Lycoming is more reliable than the Continental and the Lycoming has two less cylinders and no turbocharger and the TBO is higher on the Lycoming.

You're looking at about a $10,000 difference in total overhaul costs all things considered. But with the typical higher true airspeeds in the K, that only factors out to be a couple dollars an hour over the life of the engine. In my opinion well worth it in the desert southwest. I've owned a number of airplanes over the years, all the time being based in Tucson. I would be hard pressed to buy a normally aspirated single today. Twins are a different story if they have sufficient displacement or have an efficient enough wing.

[carusoam]

I like spending OPM...

1) The M20C likes to fly fully loaded at 12,500'

2) The climb to get there takes more time than some birds.

3) Time is money.

4) Speed costs money.

4.5) Adding vertical speed cost even more money.

5) If you like flying in the flight levels get a Turbo.

6) If you like Flying just short of the flight levels stay NA.

7) high DA requires additional planning prior to T/O. A fully loaded 200hp plane can use more than the available runway.

8) There is one option that hasn't been mentioned?  Adding a pair of cylinders can be pretty cool. An IO550 adds another NA 100hp.  Great for improved T/O runs, and climb up towards the FLs.

9) a J with an IO550 is called a Missile. 300 NA hp.

10) I keep finding that I really like my NA bird.  The more hp the better.  It can always be turned down for better mileage....

Go IO550, no Turbo lag, no Turbo OH, no intercooler, no pressure controller, no discussion of Turbo cool down required...  Stay NA!

My next plane is probably going to have a TNIO550.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 2, 2017 by carusoam

[Hank]

Let me know, Anthony--I may be ready to upgrade from my O-360 to an IO-550 by then . . . .  

[carqwik]

Turbo or not in the desert Southwest, it's hotter than hell in the summer at any time the sun is in the sky.  Worse, with no A/C, you sweat like crazy just on start-up and taxi.  Then, even with a turbo (at least in my Bravo), takeoff runs are longer, climb rate is weak initially (compared to the winter), and until I get above 10k or so, the air doesn't seem to cool down that much. 

That said, I'd go with a turbo M20K.  The Arrow is just a dog in comparison...and I've got 100+ hours in a T-Arrow IV.

Edited May 2, 2017 by carqwik

[kmyfm20s]

On 5/1/2017 at 9:58 AM, peevee said:

I love the "I did it one time so it's fine" argument from the na guys.

I live on the edge, this NA guy has done it multiple times!

[kmyfm20s]

I don't care how hot it is in the summer the only thing preventing this guy from going from Las Vegas to Santa Monica or Van Nuys safely will be ice in the winter time. Turbo or NA! Buy a plane the fits 80-90% of your mission profile.

90% of his flight is 2 or less people that pack light for trips 150-300 miles.

I cant wait for the turbo prop guys to get on and bark at you under powered turbo guys that fly so low.

[peevee]

28 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

I live on the edge, this NA guy has done it multiple times!

what's that? Can't hear you from up here.

[Godfather]

I give a lot of credit to the individuals who want to use a mask every flight. I don't really care for them and my wife is not a fan.  If I lived out west and forced the issue I'm sure we would manage.  However, it would not be hard to talk her into pressurized comfort. 

[kmyfm20s]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

what's that? Can't hear you from up here.

Exactly!

[peevee]

59 minutes ago, Godfather said:

I give a lot of credit to the individuals who want to use a mask every flight. I don't really care for them and my wife is not a fan.  If I lived out west and forced the issue I'm sure we would manage.  However, it would not be hard to talk her into pressurized comfort. 

I only wear a mask above 180 and then it's a silicone mic mask. The cannulas aren't bad at all

[gsengle]

You don't need a mask to enjoy a turbo boosted takeoff at 5k feet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chrisk]

2 hours ago, Godfather said:

I give a lot of credit to the individuals who want to use a mask every flight. I don't really care for them and my wife is not a fan.  If I lived out west and forced the issue I'm sure we would manage.  However, it would not be hard to talk her into pressurized comfort. 

I love flying at high altitudes.  It's typically smooth.  There is less traffic.  Flying in the flight levels (class A) is a major reduction in work load.  Yous set the altimeter once, and not many hand offs.   Lots of options for an engine out. Speed is typically good, especially when heading east.  An example is a 750 mile flight I had from Flagstaff AZ to Austin Tx.  It was right at  4 hours, start up to shut down.

There are some down sides.  It takes a long time to get to FL200, at 500 feet per minute.   A descent starts 100 miles out. Which means I only do this on 400+ mile trips. The mask is a pain. Sometimes it gets cold, even in the summer.  A bathroom break isn't going to happen.  Sometimes a headwind means it is not worth the climb.  I've gotten ice on the plane in August (at least you can go down and melt it quickly).  And I've gotten STARs that I would never get if I flew lower.

[Jeev]

4 hours ago, kmyfm20s said:

I don't care how hot it is in the summer the only thing preventing this guy from going from Las Vegas to Santa Monica or Van Nuys safely will be ice in the winter time. Turbo or NA! Buy a plane the fits 80-90% of your mission profile.

90% of his flight is 2 or less people that pack light for trips 150-300 miles.

I cant wait for the turbo prop guys to get on and bark at you under powered turbo guys that fly so low.

Spot on.  I have been flying my J out of North Las Vegas for 7 years and 1000hrs.  I fly mostly to Southern California but very often to Napa, Mammoth (in the winter) and Denver.  Once or twice a year I take the J to Florida and the Bahamas, the only thing that stops me is ICE.  I depart all times of the day out of Vegas even when it is 110deg and the DA is close to 6000ft at VGT. My cruising altitude to the LA area is always above 8000 and most of the time during the summer 10000-12000.  Would a turbo bird perform better, yes.  Is it a requirement to fly safely year round out of vegas, definitely NOT.  With that being said I often fly 200 under GW (as the OP would) in the Summer.  If you find a nice turbo'd bird in your price range do it you will not be disappointed with a 231, 252 the performance is awesome. But don't write off the J based on people saying you NEED a turbo, you will not be disappointed with a J.  Go with your wants and budget, find a clean aircraft that has flown regularly, been maintained well and expect to spend thousands the 1st few years getting things up to your standards. When I bought my J I didn't have the budget for a turbo and wanted a "simple" aircraft for my 1st ownership experience, it has been a great aircraft for me and I have no regrets.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Jeev

[gsxrpilot]

I think us turbo drivers are all in agreement with you, @Jeev.  There's nothing wrong with, or unsafe about flying a J. And as I've described, I've flown a C all over the mountain west. But if the budget allows, (it's definitely more expensive), a turbo is certainly preferable.  I was very happy flying my C. But then when the budget allowed, I got a 252. And yes, it's better 

[Jeev]

2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I think us turbo drivers are all in agreement with you, @Jeev.  There's nothing wrong with, or unsafe about flying a J. And as I've described, I've flown a C all over the mountain west. But if the budget allows, (it's definitely more expensive), a turbo is certainly preferable.  I was very happy flying my C. But then when the budget allowed, I got a 252. And yes, it's better 

Agreed,  my next plane will be 6 seats and turbo normalized too bad it's not going to be a Mooney :-( ... Going to need a bigger interior with kiddo's. As you said a turbo is budget driven and better ;-).

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, Jeev said:

Agreed,  my next plane will be 6 seats and turbo normalized too bad it's not going to be a Mooney :-( ... Going to need a bigger interior with kiddo's. As you said a turbo is budget driven and better ;-).

My youngest kid graduates from college this weekend... I'll be getting a raise