Rocket Engineering

[Ben E.]

Hypothetical question here.  I'm not too familiar with how mods, STCs, and all that stuff works.  If Rocket Engineering (knock on wood) were to go out of business, how would that practically affect Mooney Rocket and Missile owners?  Would their repair shop be able to make all necessary future repairs without having to rely on Rocket Engineering for parts or approvals?

[carusoam]

Great question...

1) Rocket engineering is still a long standing company...

2) there are other important  STCs drawn by other less skilled companies...

3) when the company is no longer, the STCs are an asset that often gets sold with or without the company.

4) then there are technical rules about what happens to the STC if nobody picks up the ownership of it.  It probably belongs to the FAA after that.

5) Rocket engineering has done a lot of work outside the Mooney community.

6) they are responsible for the Missile, Rocket, Screamin' Eagle and Standing Ovation.

7) they sold some of the STCs to Mooney who is using them for the 310hp Ovation....

Is this helpful?

PP knowledge only, not a lawyer...a happy owner of two versions of STCs for my 310hp engine and TopProp....

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by carusoam

[M20F]

It can cause problems.  RayJay's as example you can get the motor STC but not the airframe STC (or vice versa I forget which).  This can happen with factory planes as well.  Piper lost all the Comanche tooling to a flood so some of those parts are hard to find.  An STC holder can kill the STC all together.

Hard to predict the future.  The larger the volume of planes made the better the odds are you will always be able to get what you need.  I don't ever envision an issue finding C172 parts as example. 

[N201MKTurbo]

My turbo system is kind of orphaned but most of the parts are available. Most of the parts are 231 parts. The rest can be repaired by a good welder.

[carusoam]

Nice point, Rich!

I got drawn off topic a bit...

The Missile STC uses an IO550(a) that is fully supported by TCM.

The Rocket STC uses a TSIO520 that is fully supported by TCM.

The high risk things are not that high of a risk compared to factory built planes.

Take a look at each STC to see what actually gets used.  It may include a different engine, mount, and cowl.  All originally made by somebody else... all can be maintained or replaced

When TC'd it may use a different Turbo, pressure controller and intercooler.

There may be a few brackets and hardware pieces added in for completion.

OHing each piece should have a viable plan.  Where to go, what to have done.  That kind of thing...

Replacing each piece should be looked at to see what the possibilities can be.

I bought my first Mooney soon after the company closed down for the second(?) time.  You quickly find all the parts manufacturers, for all the parts that wear, are not part of Mooney.

If there is a will... there is a way...

More PP thoughts...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by carusoam

[M20kflyer99]

I have nothing to add except that I want the 300lb GW increase for my K and I'm ready to pay the AMU's for it.

[aviatoreb]

I thought about exactly this a lot before I got a Mooney Rocket.  The STC uses the TSIO520NB which is a relatively very common continental engine as it comes from the Cessna 340/414's, and likewise all of the accessories that go with.  Props are standard.The most specialized part I can think of is the engine cage, and the exhaust stack.  Both of those could be recreated by 3rd parties if the STC holder went belly up.  But Rocket Engineering is as healthy a company in GA as they come - knock on wood - because it is a rickety industry subject to whims of the economy, but they are very lively with their piper jet prop conversion.  They have shown me better support through the years than even the mooney factory, during the factories down period after the economic crash.  Nothing is for sure, but this one seems as stable as they come, and I would rate it comparably to factory products - maybe better if you consider the sad story of the porsche mooney.

As time goes on it will become hard to keep old airplanes flying, but then there is likely to be a larger and larger pool of old airplane parts from retired donor airplanes.

[peevee]

The engine mount is pretty strong, those can be overhauled pretty easy I think. It's the exhaust I worry about, as long as the fixtures are around it's not a problem, once those are gone who knows.

Also, rocket probably doesn't do any fabrication, they probably sub it out so maybe dahley or someone has the jigs.

[Mcstealth]

57 minutes ago, M20kflyer99 said:

I have nothing to add except that I want the 300lb GW increase for my K and I'm ready to pay the AMU's for it.

Set an appointment wit DMax

[M20kflyer99]

Set an appointment wit DMax

Is there some black magic I'm not aware of? The only thing searching found was references to a GW increase for some J models to get it up to 2900#. I want the Rocket (+300lb) 3200lb max gross stc for the M20K without doing a whole Rocket conversion. That's beyond my AMU allowance.  

Edit: fixed missile to rocket

 

 

[peevee]

10 minutes ago, M20kflyer99 said:

Is there some black magic in not aware of? Only thing I found searching was references to a GW increase for some J models to get it up to 2900#. I want the Missile (+300lb) 3200lb max gross stc for the M20K without doing a while missile conversion. That's beyond my AMU allowance.

K model would be a rocket conversion and the j a missile, no?

[Hank]

Just now, peevee said:

K model would be a rocket conversion and the j a missile, no?

Yes. K = turbo, so goes to Rocket.

[Mcstealth]

1 hour ago, M20kflyer99 said:

Is there some black magic I'm not aware of? The only thing searching found was references to a GW increase for some J models to get it up to 2900#. I want the Rocket (+300lb) 3200lb max gross stc for the M20K without doing a whole Rocket conversion. That's beyond my AMU allowance.  

Edit: fixed missile to rocket

 

 

231 or 252?

[Mcstealth]

Check to see if you van go the Encore route. 

[M20kflyer99]

231 or 252?

1980 231

[Ben E.]

Thanks guys.  I'm really tempted by the Rocket, because it would work well with my mission.  I know Rocket Engineering is doing well. I just wanted to make sure that if something did happen and the STC wasn't transferred to someone for some reason, that I wouldn't be grounded indefinitely if something happened with one of the modified parts.  

[gsengle]

I thought these conversions were discontinued. So you can buy one but you can't make a new one....

http://www.rocketengineering.com/content/mooney-305-rocket


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[peevee]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

I thought these conversions were discontinued. So you can buy one but you can't make a new one....

http://www.rocketengineering.com/content/mooney-305-rocket


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Correct. More money to be made in turbines I guess.

[gsengle]

They probably figure since the base models are no longer in production, most of the conversions that would be done have been done...


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[peevee]

12 minutes ago, gsengle said:

They probably figure since the base models are no longer in production, most of the conversions that would be done have been done...


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Maybe, or it just wasn't profitable. You figure how often does an airplane need an overhaul, ten years? That limits the window to when people might be considering the upgrade to once a decade, there are still a lot of 231s and 252s out there and the conversion is really nice to have.

[KSMooniac]

Mooney ended up making factory planes that pretty much ended demand for the Missile and Rocket conversions. I wouldn't hesitate to buy either if they fit my mission.

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[M016576]

I've got a missile.

two years ago, the motor had sagged down close the engine mount in one spot, requiring a repair.  Rocket helped to arrange the repair and powder coat.  I replaced the lord mounts- not expecting to see something go wrong with the mount for another 20 or so years, if ever.

the exhaust, and the modified cowling are the other custom parts.  All three can be maintained by a capable A&P/fiberglass shop/welder.  I'm not worried about the missile conversion, even if Rocket goes TU (which I doubt they will: they are making all those sweet jetprop conversion).

as for why the STC got discontinued: I think they only did 40 or so missile conversion.  About 3 times as many rocket conversions... but once the bravo and ovation came out, the cost to acquire a J/K, and add the 100K mod didn't seem to make sense vs buying new.... I bet now, though, that the cost of a new O or Acclaim is over 600K, that the economics might actually make sense again... the key would be finding some potential customers to inquire with the company....

[Mcstealth]

6 hours ago, M20kflyer99 said:

1980 231

Okay. Let's look up the Encore requirements. 

[KSMooniac]

Only the 252 is eligible for the Encore conversion.

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[Mcstealth]

11 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Only the 252 is eligible for the Encore conversion.

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Well crud. In my faded memory, I "thought" I remembered that some serial numbers in the 231 line would qualify.