Dream to fly Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 I've got parts coming from Lasar and the AP and I are on the same page. I have a few ideas I just don't know if it is possible. The M20F instrument panel is basically three sections a pilot and co-pilot panel and a radio stack. Can one section be done at a time and can one call on the Hanger elves to get it done. I'd like to start on the co-pilot side, find good used 2 inch electronic gauges. manifold/fuel and an electronic tach. Keep the primary instruments in the lower left were they are and install an I-pad mini dock and maybe a JPI unit. Then move to the pilot side and create a useable six pack with electric gauges and update all the switches and lights. Last find second hand radios maybe a 430 WAAS and get it done. I've seen a few threads and pictures of complete overhaul and the end result is outstanding the journey not so much. I like to do it in small steps. Quote
Pritch Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 Back in the early 90's I build an all new panel for my 63C and the local A&I who later went to work for the feds signed it off. By the way what do you do up in Beautiful Hazen ND, I might be one of the few on this Forum who has been there not once but 4 times. Pritch Quote
HRM Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, Dream to fly said: I've got parts coming from Lasar and the AP and I are on the same page. I have a few ideas I just don't know if it is possible. The M20F instrument panel is basically three sections a pilot and co-pilot panel and a radio stack. Can one section be done at a time and can one call on the Hanger elves to get it done. Depends on your hangar. The elves in mine are astonishingly talented to the amazement of all. My IA hasn't balked yet at anything they've done. 1 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 Sure, why not. As long as a friendly A&P will sign it off. There's no reason you can't do the panel in three different steps. Quote
carusoam Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 There is a reason why the FAA posts things you can do. Then there are are educated hangar fairies working behind the scenes.... When going out of your way to describe the three sections of the instrument panel on every Mooney, you may lose people's interest. When you are so new to this game, you may consider working closely with your mechanic. Many people actually do this. The instrument panel is THE device that gets used to keep the sunny side up. The last thing you want is to have to rely on this device when it has been assembled by somebody without the proper tools and or skills.... nobody I know has ever flown VFR into IMC...... (exaggeration...) Compare this to how many accidents actually happen when a VFR (non-cloud) pilot flys into IMC (clouds). It is great to do the work yourself. Just do it right to keep from getting in trouble. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
carusoam Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) Summary... 1) find friendly A&P 2) discuss the various steps of the project 3) work together on small steps 4) gain trust for the larger steps 5) There are right ways, and not quite right ways. 6) Not doing it the right way can keep the the plane grounded for a long expensive time. 7) focus on doing it the right way. It is good for your wallet and your health. 8) are you familiar with the 23 (or so ) maintenance things a PP is allowed to accomplish? PP thoughts only, not a mechanic. Best regards, -a- Edited March 31, 2017 by carusoam Quote
Dream to fly Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Posted March 31, 2017 Sorry, I wasn't dumbing down the instrument panel but looking at other posts most instrument panels are done in one piece. That seems like it is very expensive and can be overwhelming to tackle. That was why my thought to tackle the co-pilot side first not so critical on the instrumentation 1 Quote
carusoam Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) Panels take a lot of planning. the panel itself is nothing in parts costs. A few hundred bucks for the metal pieces. Add some paint and installation. The devices are expensive. Most can be re-used. Hardware can be purchased for near nothing. Putting it all together seems to be the sport of the guys that have been flying a long time. Part of the fun is the endless debate of what your instrument panel will contain. Adding a G5 to the panel makes a lot of sense for some. Completely unusable for others... The panel itself is low cost. All the work to support it gets costly. Taking it to the level where you can fly IFR is tens of thousands of dollars in instrument costs... Fun stuff... not very inexpensive. The more you know, the more you can do it right. Match your economics, while staying legal. Are you instrument rated? Best regards, -a- Edited March 31, 2017 by carusoam Quote
Dream to fly Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Posted March 31, 2017 The plane is IFR but old. I am working on my certification and I am not for all the bells and whistles of glass. Some of the glass is so over the top for even turbine aircraft let alone a Mooney. I think steam gauges should be updated to electric style but that is a personal opinion. Quote
carusoam Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 More usable data is better than less useable data... When flying across the country it won't matter if the plane is turbine driven. The pilot is still trying to avoid icing and thunderstorms. In this case more data is better than less data. Keep in mind there are plenty of us that fly VFR only, Daytime only, and/or nice weather only... The FAA allows us to use some low cost portable devices to get some weather info and some traffic details... The 2020 mandate is having people update some of the center stack as well. You get to pick what is right for you. Not everyone will agree with your choices. You only have to defend when you feel like it. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
RLCarter Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 3 hours ago, Dream to fly said: The plane is IFR but old. I am working on my certification and I am not for all the bells and whistles of glass. Some of the glass is so over the top for even turbine aircraft let alone a Mooney. I think steam gauges should be updated to electric style but that is a personal opinion. I'm a steam guy as well (but I do love my iPad), neither my Mooney or the 172 I fly have a std 6 pk, will probably change the Mooney then the 172 with in a year or so. Will probably cut my own panels seeing how I have the CAD/CAM software plus access to a digitizer and a water jet. Quote
MBDiagMan Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 Although my education and background is electrical engineering, I am not an avionics expert. I am also not IFR certified. That said, I have gotten the impression from my reading that the six pack should be partially electric and partially vacuum. The reason is so that when you are in the white stuff for real, if on source or the other fails you have at least a few instruments operational. My $0.02, Quote
Yetti Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 You might consider updating the panel to say the 75 F version which is in 4 pieces. Depending on which piece you are working are, they are kind of you have to pull this one to get at that one. Or you have to pull this one to to get room to work on that one. There are Phillips head screws with nuts that hold the bottom of the panel... If you think you might be taking the panel off again, you could switch them out to allen head cap screws. You are upside down with legs sticking out the door to work on the the thing. Anything to make it easier. Quote
MyNameIsNobody Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 Not license yet, but already thinking about your panel. O.K... Yes, There is no requirement to "do" the whole panel all at once. Some do because they have the funds and it will match and they are picky about having it all look the same and it is "more cost effective...If you know what you want and have cash" to do do it all at once. I did my panel one used (better than installed) instrument at a time, because that is what I could afford. I personally want a plane that is wired by those that are licensed to do so and have experience doing so. If I see a hanger fairy in my hanger it is a dead-fairy. I wish Apple would get an aviation dedicated screen that works well in direct sun-light. I would buy one. I like and use I-pads, in plane, but I despise the glare and smudge-marks that are ultra visible in the sun. The dedicated 696GPS in a panel dock wired with external GPS antenna and GDL-39 is awesome as primary. Pilot on I-Pad is also great with limitations. In summary: YES Left/Center and Co-Pilot panels can be separated. Just save your spray paint to match your panel cut-outs. You might find that you have better ideas that you can incorporate later. Lots of photos here to get an idea what is being done and what you like and dis-like for placement/avionics choices. Everybody has opinions. My opinion that working on a certified airplane when you are NOT certified to do so is No Bueno. Have fun getting your ticket in your F. I couldn't afford an F when I bought my plane because I have more than aviation tugging me for attention from my wallet. As you know planes are money sucking black holes that WILL take all you feed them. ROI is questionable... 1 Quote
Dream to fly Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Posted March 31, 2017 Thank you for the info!!! Its a lot to plan and a lot to think about. I am thinking that doing it in sections will be best for my wallet. I do agree that it will have to be done by certified people, because the more I look at photos the more it is overwhelming to how many wires there are. Time and money I think will dictate how this panel turns out LOL. 1 Quote
RLCarter Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 Seeing all the wires, plumbing, avionics, control rods and all the other stuff that is crammed behind the panel all exposed can make you think twice about even having someone else do it. One thing that I saw somewhere was an owner doing his own panel and he used plexiglass or lexan so that he could see both sides at the same time, once everything was where it needed to be and clearances was good the plexi was used as a template, seemed like a good idea to me. Quote
carusoam Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 Take a look at Steven's panel... @StevenL757 for an example of the plexi-glass panel fitting technique. It is a minor expense, focused on getting it right, compared to the cost of all the devices that are getting mounted in the panel. Best regards, -a- Quote
peevee Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 15 hours ago, Pritch said: Back in the early 90's I build an all new panel for my 63C and the local A&I who later went to work for the feds signed it off. By the way what do you do up in Beautiful Hazen ND, I might be one of the few on this Forum who has been there not once but 4 times. Pritch I've been to a lot of airports in minndak, can't say I've been to hazen. Quote
Marauder Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 2 hours ago, Dream to fly said: Thank you for the info!!! Its a lot to plan and a lot to think about. I am thinking that doing it in sections will be best for my wallet. I do agree that it will have to be done by certified people, because the more I look at photos the more it is overwhelming to how many wires there are. Time and money I think will dictate how this panel turns out LOL. Being a connoisseur of panel work, you can do a fair amount yourself if you have the skill and as was mentioned above, a willing AP/IA to sign off on the work. In the 1990s I built this sub panel, installed the engine analyzer and the EI FP-5L. It was later used to hold the STEC switches. Ironically, when I moved, the local FSDO required it to be removed. I finally got to an "interim" state by going through the process with an avionics shop in late 2012 / early 2013. Of course, you think you are in Avionics Nirvana... Only to find out there is more work to be done. Here is the progress as of yesterday afternoon... With hope it will all come back together again... Quote
Hank Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 Wow, Chris, I'm shocked! I, too, thought you were in aviation nirvana already! Be sure to remove the CO "dot" card and replace it with your new detector. I'll probably play with Command Hooks until I decide on a final home for mine; right now it's laying on the back seat while the magneto is out for overhaul; I'll play with it on the flight home and see if I can find a good place on my full panel. Right now, I'm thinking about putting it between the throttle quadrant the and the big vent opening, I think there's an open spot there. Quote
Marauder Posted March 31, 2017 Report Posted March 31, 2017 Wow, Chris, I'm shocked! I, too, thought you were in aviation nirvana already! Be sure to remove the CO "dot" card and replace it with your new detector. I'll probably play with Command Hooks until I decide on a final home for mine; right now it's laying on the back seat while the magneto is out for overhaul; I'll play with it on the flight home and see if I can find a good place on my full panel. Right now, I'm thinking about putting it between the throttle quadrant the and the big vent opening, I think there's an open spot there. Pretty funny Hank! I was texting with NotarPilot yesterday and he said the same thing about the red dot CO detector. I will mount the Sensecor unit when I get the plane back. I really like the idea of using Command tape. Thanks for posting that. As for the work, I always wanted to correct the left panel because it still had the factory Naugahyde coating on it and it has been peeling for years. With the ADS-B unit going in, it was a chance to do the panel replacement and also remove the rest of the steam gauges. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote
Dream to fly Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Posted April 1, 2017 So is the angled panel that holds the circuit breakers your design or do they come that way. Mine are low and in a line I'd love to have an angle so I can put the mechanical tach and manifold/fuel and breakers out of the way but still visible when needed. Quote
StevenL757 Posted April 1, 2017 Report Posted April 1, 2017 10 hours ago, Dream to fly said: Thank you for the info!!! Its a lot to plan and a lot to think about. I am thinking that doing it in sections will be best for my wallet. I do agree that it will have to be done by certified people, because the more I look at photos the more it is overwhelming to how many wires there are. Time and money I think will dictate how this panel turns out LOL. So a few thoughts on your OP and above...appreciating we all have budgets. As others have said, your panel can certainly be done in pieces, so depending on your skills, you can save some labor. If you plan on having a shop do the majority of the work, plan to do as much work as possible in one visit. Multiple install tasks can be combined into a single appointment, saving wear and tear on your interior, which will most likely need disassembling each time you plan to open a part of the cockpit for work. Again, this option may not be possible for everyone based on budget, but you should consider it. To Anthony's point, I did have a lexan panel fabricated to check not only fit and appearance of everything from the front, but there were a couple of instruments in my CAD drawings I wanted in certain place that eventually needed rearranging as they needed better clearance in the back. Good luck. :-) Steve 3 Quote
Marauder Posted April 1, 2017 Report Posted April 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, Dream to fly said: So is the angled panel that holds the circuit breakers your design or do they come that way. Mine are low and in a line I'd love to have an angle so I can put the mechanical tach and manifold/fuel and breakers out of the way but still visible when needed. You should post some pictures of your panel. It is easier for us to spend your money that way. The 60s plane and even the 74 model have a different panel layout and height. If you look at Bob Belville's E you can get a sense of what can be done. My 75 F come with a smaller breaker panel. During my 2013 rebuilt of the right side (I forgot about that one), I had the angled breaker panel enlarged to support the additional avionic breakers. Quote
Dream to fly Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Posted April 1, 2017 That looks sharp!!! I like that. But my wallet is not that thick. I'm impressed just showed my wife and now she is trying to unplug my computer. I love the blue lights. Not sure I can do all glass. but that is the look:) Quote
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