Typical Vertical Descent Rate Poll

[kortopates]

34 minutes ago, jkhirsch said:

Clearly any good pilot should look to carry maximum kinetic energy to the point of impact and achieve this on each and every approach to landing to avoid operating at reduced power settings where every single engine failure happens:

I am confused by your statement yet intrigued by what point your aiming for. I would put it as the goal is to manage the aircraft's potential energy and kinetic energy so that we are gradually dissipating excess potential energy into kinetic energy without ever building an abundance of either that would require using excess drag to dissipate (e.g., speed brakes, slips, early gear down etc). Its the efficient conversion of potential to kinetic that makes up for the time and extra fuel to climb that helps getting to altitude really pay off in faster cruise TAS .

The maximum pilot permissible kinetic energy at any one time (airspeed), is going to be pilot specific and constrained by conditions. For me in clear air on a VFR approach its going to be right below the yellow arc (Vno) until the last 5 miles to the airport which is where I'll start decreasing from near cruise power to be at gear speed a mile from the traffic pattern.  But all the way down its all about using up the excess potential so that we maximize conversion of excess potential energy to kinetic energy without wasting either. Although I'll manage mine to get to the airport soonest, while other pilots may choose to manage their to make up for the extra fuel burn in climb. But Its all good as long as we don't waste energy by committing one of the 2 great sins of a properly executed descent by either 1) having to go back to level cruise power or level flight from prematurely using up potential which is the most sinful IMO because it means we're in a world of hurt if we loose the engine and 2) we have to resort to drag devices to dissipate excess kinetic energy. 

The #1 sin of getting down to early, is big part of why I really dislike needing to get to TPA any sooner than necessary. But especially a new pilot or new in type pilot #1 responsibility should always be to stay well ahead of the aircraft and getting down and slowing down is going to help them stay ahead. And sometimes traffic will dictate doing so too. That judgement comes from staying well ahead and anticipating the circumstances ahead or time and not being surprised.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, jkhirsch said:

Clearly any good pilot should look to carry maximum kinetic energy to the point of impact and achieve this on each and every approach to landing to avoid operating at reduced power settings where every single engine failure happens:

Or, as one of my Marine flight instructors told me (sarcastically), "A smoking hole is a small price to pay for a sheit-hot approach".  

[Shadrach]

500fpm.  This makes it easy to know when to start descent. I take my altitude and subtract pattern altitude, divide by one thousand and multiply by two. Cruising at 12,500 and landing at a field with a pattern alt of 1,500' would mean starting my descent when the ETA shows around 22Mins (12,500-1,500 = 11,000/1000 = 11 X 2 = 22). Mild adjustments in descent for extra speed but it typically works out well.

[jkhirsch]

Paul: All leftover kinetic energy belongs on the runway in the form of brake dust and black rubber.

[jkhirsch]

38 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I am confused by your statement yet intrigued by what point your aiming for.

Sarcasm and mockery are the majority of points I aim for, besides the end of the runway

[cnoe]

Unless I missed it, nobody mentioned OAT as a factor.

Living on the Texas Gulf Coast and having to negotiate past two Class Bravo airports on the majority of my flights I routinely BEG to stay as high as possible 'cause it's HOT and turbulent down low. If you start too low or take what approach gives you you'll end up flying the last hour of a north/south route at 2,000' AGL in the "soup" (i.e. hot/humid air).

I'll offer to fly well clear of the Bravo in exchange for staying high, and ATC will often cooperate. I discussed this with them at a recent TRACON tour and they pretty much said that nobody is going to be cleared to transit the area through the Bravo surrounding KIAH.

So... I'll take whatever descent is necessary to get down from wherever they'll let me stay. If I have to descend at 1,000 fpm at the end it means that I've done a good job negotiating with ATC.

If the temperatures aren't a factor I usually shoot for 500 fpm. Maybe 300-400 if in IMC.

[gsxrpilot]

I've often wondered why the Houston Bravo is a no go area period. I've never been allowed to transit the Bravo ever. But the DFW Bravo is easy. I've been cleared into the Bravo virtually every time I've asked. Both have a huge primary airport and a very busy secondary airport.  I'm just curious as to the reasons for the differences.

If the weather is cooperative, I just don't talk to Houston Approach or anyone until clear of their airspace. That way I can go right over the top at 11,500 or 12,500 and then call in and pick up my clearance or flight following on the other side. This of course, wouldn't work if you're departing under the Bravo like @cnoe.

[kortopates]

15 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've often wondered why the Houston Bravo is a no go area period. I've never been allowed to transit the Bravo ever. But the DFW Bravo is easy. I've been cleared into the Bravo virtually every time I've asked. Both have a huge primary airport and a very busy secondary airport.  I'm just curious as to the reasons for the differences.

If the weather is cooperative, I just don't talk to Houston Approach or anyone until clear of their airspace. That way I can go right over the top at 11,500 or 12,500 and then call in and pick up my clearance or flight following on the other side. This of course, wouldn't work if you're departing under the Bravo like @cnoe.

So very true about Houston. I don't get it either. My experience is they want you at 17K IFR east bound over the top to go around. I am usually transiting the area after a departure from San Marcus or Fredericksburg so depending on wx I'll either be up there anyway or I'll go around usually to north by College Station. But they have a reputation of only working traffic originating or departing their Bravo. I haven't tried to transit above their airspace VFR though. Are you saying they don't even want to work with VFR flight following traffic transiting right above 11.5/12.5 as you mentioned?  That's crazy because they really hate VFR aircraft transiting across their Bravo not talking to them since they have to move departures and arrivals  more so than vector traffic they are communicating with a bit right or left.

Some controller at Houston must be charged with pilot outreach that would be worthwhile talking with to work on the issues. 

[Hank]

49 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've often wondered why the Houston Bravo is a no go area period. I've never been allowed to transit the Bravo ever. But the DFW Bravo is easy. I've been cleared into the Bravo virtually every time I've asked. Both have a huge primary airport and a very busy secondary airport.  I'm just curious as to the reasons for the differences.

If the weather is cooperative, I just don't talk to Houston Approach or anyone until clear of their airspace. That way I can go right over the top at 11,500 or 12,500 and then call in and pick up my clearance or flight following on the other side. This of course, wouldn't work if you're departing under the Bravo like @cnoe.

Ya'll must share Tower management with Atlanta. I've never been cleared into their Bravo either, even IFR requesting T Routes by number . . . So when possible, I go by VFR at 9500, crossing the approach lanes at 70-80° intercepts for my normal routes. Bravo goes to 12.5, which is a little high for my C to climb  (especially when NE bound).

[Mooneymite]

1 minute ago, Hank said:

Ya'll must share Tower management with Atlanta. I've never been cleared into their Bravo either, even IFR requesting T Routes by number . . . So when possible, I go by VFR at 9500, crossing the approach lanes at 70-80° intercepts for my normal routes. Bravo goes to 12.5, which is a little high for my C to climb  (especially when NE bound).

Actually, Atlanta approach is pretty friendly.  I get cleared over the top at 4-6K most any time I ask.  The big determinant of where you can and can't get cleared seems to be which way Hartsfield is operating (E/W) and if the sky full of Delta.....

Just remember you can't top the ATL class B at 10,000'!  

[gsxrpilot]

53 minutes ago, kortopates said:

So very true about Houston. I don't get it either. My experience is they want you at 17K IFR east bound over the top to go around. I am usually transiting the area after a departure from San Marcus or Fredericksburg so depending on wx I'll either be up there anyway or I'll go around usually to north by College Station. But they have a reputation of only working traffic originating or departing their Bravo. I haven't tried to transit above their airspace VFR though. Are you saying they don't even want to work with VFR flight following traffic transiting right above 11.5/12.5 as you mentioned?  That's crazy because they really hate VFR aircraft transiting across their Bravo not talking to them since they have to move departures and arrivals  more so than vector traffic they are communicating with a bit right or left.

Some controller at Houston must be charged with pilot outreach that would be worthwhile talking with to work on the issues. 

I've come through at 11,5 or 12,5 on flight following VFR and been routed far north both times. The top of the Bravo is only 10,000. So since then, I just keep quiet and go right over the top. I'm listening to Approach obviously and could hear them calling traffic (me) out to jets on approach into IAH. I'd be happy to be talking and carrying a squawk but not if it means adding 30 minutes to my flight. 

[cnoe]

I've come through at 11,5 or 12,5 on flight following VFR and been routed far north both times. The top of the Bravo is only 10,000. So since then, I just keep quiet and go right over the top. I'm listening to Approach obviously and could hear them calling traffic (me) out to jets on approach into IAH. I'd be happy to be talking and carrying a squawk but not if it means adding 30 minutes to my flight. 

I never really got it either until I did the TRACON tour and got to ask the supervisors questions. They dragged out this graphic showing how all the sectors were divided up and it started making a little bit of sense anyway. Houston Approach "owns" all the airspace up to 18,000' so Center's sure not going to help you out. The airspace looks like an irregular pie-chart but with stacked layers as well. There are approach corridors and departure corridors, plus they're also handling the traffic for Beaumont and College Station IIRC so those controllers have their own corridors too.

When I asked how to most efficiently transit N-S/S-N the head guy just sorta said plan to be stuck below 5,000' for a while, even when outside Bravo boundaries. They'll try to get you above 8,000' ASAP going north if you ask for that high or higher.

I can't go over the top 'cause I've only got 12 nm to ascend/descend the 10,500'. It would require a 3,000 fpm descent to make it down and the Mrs. Isn't going to go for that.

On a positive note the ATC supervisors are GA guys so at least they feel our pain.


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[cnoe]

One more thing, I believe the reason they don't want you over-flying the Bravo is because they still have to work you through the approach/departure paths at some point (outside of the Bravo). It's much simpler to keep us below them the entire time.

 

I'm not saying it's fair but NextGen is all about giving airliners continuous-rate ascents/descents and flight paths. If cooperating helps keep ATC privatization away I'm happy to comply. If the airlines get control of ATC it will only get worse.

 

 

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[Aviationinfo]

You needed to have an option for the new Mooney owner, like myself.   It would start at 300 fpm and increase to 1000 fpm as you get closer to the airport.

[carusoam]

What is the reason for your 1000'fpm descent avInfo?

 

---------------------------------------------

I thought 7k' was a tall Class B.  Because that is what we have around NYC.  I am outside the 30nm veil.  So it is helpful to be descending close to their limits.

We can cut through part of the class B on a VFR flyway.  IFR for just a little higher...

I'm a big fan of flying VFR over the top.  Traffic is well organized heading for the big three airports... the conga line is a continuous line of a dozen planes or so... always listening...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 24, 2017 by carusoam

[Andy95W]

10 hours ago, Shadrach said:

500fpm.  This makes it easy to know when to start descent. I take my altitude and subtract pattern altitude, divide by one thousand and multiply by two. Cruising at 12,500 and landing at a field with a pattern alt of 1,500' would mean starting my descent when the ETA shows around 22Mins (12,500-1,500 = 11,000/1000 = 11 X 2 = 22). Mild adjustments in descent for extra speed but it typically works out well.

I'm not sure I can do that much math and still keep the airplane flying straight ahead.

I just do 5 NM per 1,000 feet descent.  At 150 knots, that's right at 500 fpm. 

So for me the in example above: 11,000 feet = 55 miles.

Using Ross's example above- 150 knots = 2.5 nm per minute.  22 minutes (per the example above) x 2.5 = 55 NM

[chrisk]

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've often wondered why the Houston Bravo is a no go area period. I've never been allowed to transit the Bravo ever. But the DFW Bravo is easy. I've been cleared into the Bravo virtually every time I've asked. Both have a huge primary airport and a very busy secondary airport.  I'm just curious as to the reasons for the differences.

If the weather is cooperative, I just don't talk to Houston Approach or anyone until clear of their airspace. That way I can go right over the top at 11,500 or 12,500 and then call in and pick up my clearance or flight following on the other side. This of course, wouldn't work if you're departing under the Bravo like @cnoe.

I fly from Austin to Galveston reasonably often.  Flying IFR, I have been routed through the south west upper quadrant on a few occasions.  Another time and destination, I have had them give me an IFR clearance of "follow I10", in the east west vfr corridor.  Of course I refused to take a visual clearance by playing dumb.  "Unfamiliar with I10".  Then I got vectors which followed I10, and still in the VFR corridor.  Anyway, they have never made me go to far out of the way.   But they do seem awfully protective of their airspace.

On the other hand, I have had Dallas tell me they would take me way out of the way (to the east) unless I could go over at FL190.  Fortunately they told me early enough that I could do it and I was planning 17,000 originally so it wasn't a big deal.

[Skates97]

25 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I'm not sure I can do that much math and still keep the airplane flying straight ahead.

I just do 5 NM per 1,000 feet descent.  At 150 knots, that's right at 500 fpm. 

So for me the in example above: 11,000 feet = 55 miles.

Using Ross's example above- 150 knots = 2.5 nm per minute.  22 minutes (per the example above) x 2.5 = 55 NM

This is the same math I use, nice and simple and gets me close enough to what I want.

[wishboneash]

I must be the exception here. On longer flights and where terrain is issue which is usually the case in California, I will descend between 800-1000fpm, and airspeed depends on turbulence.

[Shadrach]

On March 23, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Andy95W said:

I'm not sure I can do that much math and still keep the airplane flying straight ahead.

I just do 5 NM per 1,000 feet descent.  At 150 knots, that's right at 500 fpm. 

So for me the in example above: 11,000 feet = 55 miles.

Using Ross's example above- 150 knots = 2.5 nm per minute.  22 minutes (per the example above) x 2.5 = 55 NM

To each their own, My descent TAS is a bit higher than but but it's not really consequential. What might have more significance is wind, though still not a lot.  My descent ground speed has varied from 120 to 252kts.  Your method makes no allowances for that while mine does. It may look like a lot of math but it's not.  8000ft going to a sea level airport, the quick math would be 8 - 1 X 2 =14  start descending 14 mins out or 35miles out if descending at 150kts.   

[Skates97]

4 hours ago, wishboneash said:

I must be the exception here. On longer flights and where terrain is issue which is usually the case in California, I will descend between 800-1000fpm, and airspeed depends on turbulence.

If I have the time I like 3-500fpm. However if I am coming back from the NE over the mountains by Big Bear/Lake Arrowhead I have to do around 1000fpm or there is no way I am getting all the way down before getting to my home airport. The first time I was coming back from Big Bear I had to make some turns over the local practice area to drop down.

[Andy95W]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

To each their own, My descent TAS is a bit higher than that but but it's not really consequential. What might have more significance is wind though still not a lot.  My descent ground speed has varied from range from 120 to 252kts.  Your method makes no allowances for that while mine does. It may look like a lot of math but it's not.  8000ft going to a sea level airport, the quick math would be 8 - 1 X 2 =14  start descending 14 mins out or 35miles out if descending at 150kts.   

Yeah, it took me about 2 years to figure out that headwinds or tailwinds were throwing off my descent planning, and your way is definitely more accurate. 

[kortopates]

Although the math isn't that bad, its still way too much work when you can use your panel GPS to plan it for you so easily and keep you on target (if you did have an IFR altitude crossing restriction). 

[peevee]

So.... Wingx pro provides a countdown of how fast I need to descend to make my destination. I'm lazy and just tick it up to about 800 fpm and pitch for 1k fpm down.no math required 

[carusoam]

Where would I find that in the WingX menus?

WingX is becoming my goto device for what my portable GPS used to do...

Best regards,

-a-