Low Time Mooney Pilots, What is your Crosswind Comfort?

[Shadrach]

  On 3/1/2017 at 12:44 PM, midlifeflyer said:

I was essentially taught this as a student pilot. Fast forward to my training as a CFI. Direct crosswind 15-20 kts. My instructor asked how I would land in it. I replied I would never use flaps. His reply, "lets go up and do some full flap landings."

Pretty much a non-event. 

The choice is a technique issue. I've seen a bunch of discussion with the net result for me being there are as many reasons to use flaps as not to use flaps.

Expand  

I am a proponent of full flaps under most circumstances.

Perhaps it's not a huge difference, but I think full flaps exacerbate ground effect. I agree that the difference in stall speed between no flaps and full flaps at gross is not huge (only 6-7mph for me). I am usually 500lbs. or more under gross. I'll take every bit of extra speed I can get without increasing margin above stall. The full flap stall speed of my plane with me and half tanks is 54mph, no flaps it's 59mph.  Not hugely significant but if you multiplied by 1.3 it's a 7mph delta. I'm not that precise while flying so I'd call no flaps vs full flaps on final a 10mph increase, which I think is significant enough to warrant consideration. YMMV

[ArtVandelay]

I used 1/2 flaps because I want the lower stall speed and additional lift.
I use full flaps when I want the extra drag.
I do a no flaps landing when I want to carry more speed, which will bring the apparent wind more forward and have extra runway to use.

[Hank]

  On 3/1/2017 at 3:38 AM, MBDiagMan said:

I think my C and my Mooney specialist CFI will be here Thursday and leave Friday night.  IF I am flying on my own Saturday, it appears that I will be faced with 5 to 15 winds, gusting to 20.  This will be South SouthEast on some North/South runways.

For you low time pilots, or low time in Mooney pilots, what is your comfort level with this?  Since it is sort of down the runway, I would do this in my taildragger, but I have lots of time and lots of landings in it.

Now, without the above scenario as a discussion point, what do you consider your gust limits and your crosswind limits?

 

Expand  

Twenty degree crosswind will not be a problem for your Mooney.

When I was just passing 200 hours total time and ~120 in my Mooney, I loaded the wife up and went on vacation for ten days. Most departures were near gross, and after ~2½ hours we landed at KRAP, the wind was 50º left of the runway and gusting into the high 20s. I was nervous, but had no problem with the landing. One wheel landings work well, just make sure the other main is the second one to touch.

Crosswind takeoffs have never bothered me. Just get a little extra speed and pop into the air. Sure, the plane with weathervane into the wind, but how is that a problem? Don't you apply wind correction in the air anyway? I've made several trips looking out the side windows to see where I was going, the view out the front only matters when you're traveling that direction, such as landing. Start your XW takeoff with full aileron into the wind, and as you pick up speed reduce aileron to keep both wheels on the ground. Accelerate, jump into the air [weathervane away!], confirm positive rate, gear up and climb out. Unless you're one of those people that always expends leg muscle, rudder deflection and drag to always point the nose in the direction of travel so you don't have to worry about wind correction angles . . . . .

[DXB]

I am a low time C model pilot - coming up on 350 hours how.  My crosswind tolerance was minimal after finishing PPL - my training was not the greatest. Now I won't bat an eye at a 10 kt crosswind, even on a narrow runway.  I will even tolerate a decent gust factor with that if no passengers.  Just take up the experience incrementally and gradually widen the zone of comfort.  It's very individual i think.

[midlifeflyer]

  On 3/1/2017 at 6:44 PM, Hank said:

 

Crosswind takeoffs have never bothered me. Just get a little extra speed and pop into the air. Sure, the plane with weathervane into the wind, but how is that a problem? Don't you apply wind correction in the air anyway? I

Expand  

This.

once in the air, you remove the rudder/nosewheel input you used to track the centerline on the ground and go to coordinated flight within the air mass.

[bonal]

Hey a question that applies to me a low timer.  I definitely think the Mooney handles the x wind better than the 150. 90 degrees gusts to 20 have not been a problem. Definitely carry more speed over the fence. A real problem at home is the left crosswind (typical) the wind hits the big hangars and creates a roller that is a down draft as you cross the fence. As for take off I just start my roll with full aileron into the wind and as you rotate you have sufficient roll authority the plane breaks ground and a quick adjustment and you track the center line. Personally I think the most important thing is to correctly time your base to final turn so you are aligned on final. And remember AOA, AoA  AOA. Right!

[Rmag]

Regarding the question of flaps vs no flaps is running out of rudder authority.  No flaps you carry more speed and have more airflow over the rudder to have more rudder authority. 

I have a don't have enough x-wind hours in my Mooney yet to contribute, but I have a few hundred hours in a Carbon Cub tail tragger.  I've run out of rudder with full flaps before. Removing flaps and adding airspeed I was able to hold centerline.

While we are on the tangent of X-Wind and flap settings, this was something I was curious about in my POH for the M20J.  I just did the 2900 lb gross weight increase and this dramatically changed cross wind flap settings. 

The  2740 lb gross weight POH has this for crosswind landings:  if over 12 knots use 15° flaps which implies below 12 knots use 33°

The POH supplement for 2900 lbs gross says use 15° for crosswinds below 10 knots and 0° for crosswinds over 10 knots.

So the supplement essentially says do not use full flaps for any crosswind.

I haven't tested my mooney yet at either weights in x-winds but I did find the dramatic change in flap settings for the 2900 lb gross interesting. 

Anyone out there with real world experience on the above?

[75_M20F]

What is the crosswind limit on a Mooney anyway? I am comfortable with 20 knots or so direct x wind and it seems to be able to handle more. 

(I do happen to have a fair amount of experience... though......)

Edited March 2, 2017 by Mooney_Mike

[Hank]

  On 3/2/2017 at 1:02 AM, Mooney_Mike said:

What is the crosswind limit on a Mooney anyway? I am comfortable with 20 knots or so direct x wind and it seems to be able to handle more. 

(I do happen to have a fair amount of experience... though......)

Expand  

There are no published "limits" or even "max demonstrated"s for my C, whether you're talking about crosswind, slips or altitude. There is a Max Speed (200 mphi) and Max RPM (2700), but that's it.

If you're having trouble holding runway alignment the due to crosswind, go a little faster, use a little less flap, go around and try again or go somewhere else. I've only done the latter once, not long after I bought my Mooney  (well under 100 TIT), as a storm was blowing in. Went 4nm to where I thought the runway was better aligned and much longer than our 3000', landed without issues; found out when I recovered the plane a few days later that the runway was 10° better aligned and the exact same length . . . .  

Edited March 2, 2017 by Hank

[75_M20F]

http://www.themooneyflyer.com/issues/Mooney Flyer April 2013.pdf

Article in here about X wind landings in a Mooney.... Good reading

They seem to say about 20 knots is the cutoff, and recommends using flaps. (which I have always done as well)

Edited March 2, 2017 by Mooney_Mike

[Shadrach]

  On 3/2/2017 at 3:08 AM, Mooney_Mike said:

http://www.themooneyflyer.com/issues/Mooney Flyer April 2013.pdf

Article in here about X wind landings in a Mooney.... Good reading

They seem to say about 20 knots is the cutoff, and recommends using flaps. (which I have always done as well)

Expand  

There is no "cut off". There is not a max cross wind component in the limitations section of the POH or anywhere else. Some POHs have a max demonstrated cross wind, but that is not a limitation either, it's just the scenario that was available at the time to meet certification. 

[Andy95W]

  On 3/1/2017 at 11:07 PM, Rmag said:

Regarding the question of flaps vs no flaps is running out of rudder authority.  No flaps you carry more speed and have more airflow over the rudder to have more rudder authority. 

Expand  

Why not just use full flaps and fly a faster airspeed to maintain rudder authority?  I agree this technique works better in larger aircraft, but especially with a gusty crosswind, I prefer the extra drag of full flaps- when the airplane is done flying, a gust is much less likely to put you back in the air.

[air cooled dad]

This afternoon I was holding short of the runway in Little Rock waiting for my wheels up time to Atlanta.  Very windy.  Gusty.  Direct 20-25 knot crosswind.  Nothing a Maddog can't handle.

 I was thinking about this thread as an Arrow attempted to land.  Captain and I watched him struggle.  Arrow pilot did a go around.

 On downwind he asked directions for an airport with a runway that aligned with the current winds. He made one more unsuccessful attempt at the Bill and Hillary international airport. Eye roll...  Go around again. Off he went to a runway with much less crosswind.

 I was impressed with this pilots ability to make the choice of not landing.  Good job. Practice those crossind landings but always leave yourself an out.

As a professional pilot I applaud this weekend warrior.  He made an excellent decision knowing his skill and aircraft required a different airport for a successful outcome.  

 

Ps/fyi . Flaps 40 degrees when landing in light winds.  Flaps 28 in gusty winds for the mighty Maddog.  I don't care what flap setting is used in your Mooney. Just practice all flap settings and know your plane and personal limits.  

Edited March 2, 2017 by air cooled dad

[donkaye, MCFI]

My rule of thumb is if the crab angle to maintain runway center line is greater than about 15°, I will go to approach flaps at a minimum and possibly no flaps if I can't hold 15° with subsequent increase in speed to that associated with the flaps applied.   The increase in speed should be about 10 knots or 10 mph depending on how your ASI is labeled.  The increase in speed gives a higher stall speed and more rudder authority.  Therefore, you can touch down faster and yet the airplane will be done flying sooner.  That's good.  The plane should be flown onto the runway, which means that at the higher speed there is more chance of bouncing, so it is important to fly it on smoothly.

I choose to make life easy on myself while constantly seeing the magnitude of the crosswind by crabbing all the way to the flare, where I transition to align to the centerline with rudder for directional control and use the aileron for drift.  So far in 24 years I haven't found a crosswind that the plane couldn't handle.  I've done 35 knots, but I probably wouldn't go at 40 knots direct crosswind.  At that magnitude the ride would just be too uncomfortable.  At 35 knots I touched down at over 100 knots.  By slowly reducing power while maintaining control, it is possible to either come to a complete stop under control or applying immediate full power at a point where even with full aileron the runway couldn't be held.  Winds like that are definitely not for the pilot who hasn't practiced a lot of crosswind landings and worked up to it.  It also requires a long runway.  The day I made my landing video I flew over to Oceano (L52), the crosswind was strong, but variable.  The runway is also reasonably short at 2,360 feet.  I went around twice.  I told my SO that if I couldn't make it on the third attempt we'd go to Santa Barbara.  On that attempt the winds straightened out enough to be able to make a successful landing.  Others have not been so fortunate.  I once saw a Bonanza dug into the mud off the end of the runway.  

If the wind on takeoff is such the you have to ask yourself whether it is safe, then for you the decision is easy, don't go.  On landing, if you feel uncertain, same thing.  Go somewhere else.

[Andy95W]

  On 3/2/2017 at 5:44 AM, air cooled dad said:

Ps/fyi . Flaps 40 degrees when landing in light winds.  Flaps 28 in gusty winds for the mighty Maddog.  I don't care what flap setting is used in your Mooney. Just practice all flap settings and know your plane and personal limits.  

Expand  

In a gusty wind the Airbus does better with full flaps.  At lighter weights and slower approach speeds we can input a higher approach speed to maintain greater rudder authority.  It seems to need the extra drag or the airplane tries to keep flying and drifting around in ground effect.  After watching enough F/Os struggle trying to land with partial flaps, I now always suggest the full flaps method with a slight speed bump.

I agree that comparing the Airbus or your MD-80 to a Mooney is kind of apples to oranges, but the full flap method flown with 5-7 knots extra speed works well for my M20C.

[Shadrach]

  On 3/2/2017 at 3:57 PM, Andy95W said:

In a gusty wind the Airbus does better with full flaps.  At lighter weights and slower approach speeds we can input a higher approach speed to maintain greater rudder authority.  It seems to need the extra drag or the airplane tries to keep flying and drifting around in ground effect.  After watching enough F/Os struggle trying to land with partial flaps, I now always suggest the full flaps method with a slight speed bump.

I agree that comparing the Airbus or your MD-80 to a Mooney is kind of apples to oranges, but the full flap method flown with 5-7 knots extra speed works well for my M20C.

Expand  

For sure full flaps provides a bit of drag, though not a lot compared to other light singles I have flown. Moreover, the full flap stall speed listed is not in ground effect.  Full flaps at 1.2Vso over the threshold and it's going to continue to float or you're going to "fly it on".  In very strong winds, I prefer to go faster with a higher stall speed. I feel the transition from flying to rolling is less prolonged.  Also, I personally dislike the "raise flaps in the flare" technique that some advocate, though I suppose it can be done smoothly; I think it breeds bad habits.

[donkaye, MCFI]

  On 3/2/2017 at 5:32 PM, Shadrach said:

For sure full flaps provides a bit of drag, though not a lot compared to other light singles I have flown. More over the full flap stall speed listed is not in ground effect.  Full flaps at 1.2Vso over the threshold and it's going to continue to float or you're going to "fly it on".  In very strong winds, I prefer to go faster with a higher stall speed. I feel the transition from flying to rolling is less prolonged.  Also, I personally dislike the "raise flaps in the flare" technique that some advocate, though I suppose it can be done smoothly. I think it breeds bad habits.

Expand  

As a Moooney instructor for 23 years with nearly 6,000 of instruction given in nearly all models of Mooneys, I agree with the above.

[carusoam]

About the hardware....

65C had the short rudder...

M20Bs have a shorter rudder throw with the short rudder...

Full flaps has a significant braking action while flying...

Full rudder also adds a fair amount of drag to the equation...

Cross controlling adds the most drag...

It takes getting used to all the various drag components that come with all the cross wind techniques.

When you can't maintain the centerline while on short final, this is a hint that you ran out of rudder skills.  Yours and the plane combined.  That's what the go around is for...

well executed cross wind landings are fun. Gusty cross wind landings are not as much fun.

It really helps when you can multitask keeping one eye on the ASI while flying the plane.

PP thoughts, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 2, 2017 by carusoam

[75_M20F]

  On 3/2/2017 at 3:57 PM, Andy95W said:

In a gusty wind the Airbus does better with full flaps.  At lighter weights and slower approach speeds we can input a higher approach speed to maintain greater rudder authority.  It seems to need the extra drag or the airplane tries to keep flying and drifting around in ground effect.  After watching enough F/Os struggle trying to land with partial flaps, I now always suggest the full flaps method with a slight speed bump.

I agree that comparing the Airbus or your MD-80 to a Mooney is kind of apples to oranges, but the full flap method flown with 5-7 knots extra speed works well for my M20C.

Expand  

You obviously don't fly the Bus at AA with the Flaps 3 nonsense they have going.

[Shadrach]

  On 3/2/2017 at 5:53 PM, carusoam said:

About the hardware....

65C had the short rudder...

M20Bs have a shorter rudder throw with the short rudder...

Full flaps has a significant braking action while flying...

Full rudder also adds a fair amount of drag to the equation...

Cross controlling adds the most drag...

It takes getting used to all the various drag components that come with all the cross wind techniques.

It really helps when you can multitask keeping one eye on the ASI while flying the plane.

PP thoughts, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Expand  

Agree with all of the above with one exception:

"Full flaps has a significant braking action while flying..."

It's a true statement (depending on the meaning of significant) until the "while flying" is in ground effect . I think the attitude change is far more significant than any speed reduction from drag.  In a Mooney, flaps allow you to deliver the plane to the threshold at a lower speed and at a steeper angle, they don't provide useful drag in the flare in my opinion. Full flaps in most cases will increase roll out distances for a given speed. In ground effect the wing is experiencing an increase in lift and a decrease in aerodynamic drag. Full flaps exacerbates ground effect.   I don't have any use for "additional lift" in a cross wind, I want only adequate lift to deliver the plane safely to the runway with the most control authority possible. Once the plane has been delivered safely to said runway, I would be perfectly pleased to retract the wings if I could.

[Shadrach]

  On 3/2/2017 at 3:57 PM, Andy95W said:

In a gusty wind the Airbus does better with full flaps.  At lighter weights and slower approach speeds we can input a higher approach speed to maintain greater rudder authority.  It seems to need the extra drag or the airplane tries to keep flying and drifting around in ground effect.  After watching enough F/Os struggle trying to land with partial flaps, I now always suggest the full flaps method with a slight speed bump.

I agree that comparing the Airbus or your MD-80 to a Mooney is kind of apples to oranges, but the full flap method flown with 5-7 knots extra speed works well for my M20C.

Expand  

I assume you've not experienced that 17kt  xwing that gusts 35kts 60 degrees off the nose while in the flare. Sucks to get ballooned to 6ft AGL left or right of centerline and then suddenly find yourself out of energy, out of control authority and with the only option of fire walling the throttle before the whole thing goes pair shaped. Still can happen no flaps, but less pronounced and less likely.

[carusoam]

Ross ,

Thanks.  I tried to fix what I was typing and still didn't get it right or write....?

-a-

Edited March 2, 2017 by carusoam

[Andy95W]

  On 3/2/2017 at 5:32 PM, Shadrach said:

For sure full flaps provides a bit of drag, though not a lot compared to other light singles I have flown. Moreover, the full flap stall speed listed is not in ground effect.  Full flaps at 1.2Vso over the threshold and it's going to continue to float or you're going to "fly it on".  In very strong winds, I prefer to go faster with a higher stall speed. I feel the transition from flying to rolling is less prolonged.  Also, I personally dislike the "raise flaps in the flare" technique that some advocate, though I suppose it can be done smoothly; I think it breeds bad habits.

Expand  

 

  On 3/2/2017 at 5:39 PM, donkaye said:

As a Moooney instructor for 23 years with nearly 6,000 of instruction given in nearly all models of Mooneys, I agree with the above.

Expand  

Great points, I will give this a try for sure.  

My next problem is that my available landing distance is less than 2200 feet, and doing short final with no flaps and a few knots extra speed will be sporting... and probably a little scary.  But I am glad to hear the differing points of view.

[jonhop]

  On 3/1/2017 at 3:38 AM, MBDiagMan said:

I think my C and my Mooney specialist CFI will be here Thursday and leave Friday night.  IF I am flying on my own Saturday, it appears that I will be faced with 5 to 15 winds, gusting to 20.  This will be South SouthEast on some North/South runways.

For you low time pilots, or low time in Mooney pilots, what is your comfort level with this?  Since it is sort of down the runway, I would do this in my taildragger, but I have lots of time and lots of landings in it.

Now, without the above scenario as a discussion point, what do you consider your gust limits and your crosswind limits?

 

Expand  

I'm a low time pilot--just over 200hrs--and a low time Mooney pilot--just over 100hrs--and I would not have a problem with launching in your forecast winds with my J if the winds were as forecast. I would however, make another determination on conducting the flight with the latest wind--actual and forecast--before making the flight. According to my POH, 11kts is the maximum demonstrated crosswind component at 90°, so if the winds are outside what my POH mentions, I would definitely think twice... Your OP forecast winds looks like your cross wind component will be minimal for what the I've personally experienced in both my J and the C-172 that I learned in. Considering you have TD experience and you'd perform the same flight, it's my opinion that you are probably better at handling crosswind/gusty conditions in your Mooney than I would be and I'd have no trouble if the current winds were in line with your OP...

My demonstrated crosswind experience in my J was with winds at 15 knots gusting to 20. Turned out to be 7kts of crosswind component. It was an interesting approach and landing from my perspective but my future father in-law commented that it was a great landing. According to him it was better than flying commercial. I made the landing with full flaps with no problems but my normal operating landing procedure is to dump flaps as soon as I'm down on three wheels, so I can get more weight on them for braking. I like turning out early at my home airport, so I don't have to taxi too much. 

My maximum experienced gust component came right down the runway in AZ. Winds were 25kts gusting to 35kts. That made for another interesting landing as the gusts can hit you when you least want them too. In this case I flew the approach faster than normal with the intention of flying the plane onto the ground. I had full flaps in and got hit with a gust right at touchdown. Because I had extra airspeed and was going to fly it on, I had the energy to push down on the yoke, ride out the gust and then set her down, still above the stall warning. The runway was nice and long though, so I had plenty of space. I dumped the flaps and applied the brakes once on the ground and didn't have any additional surprises. On takeoff an hour later winds were 30kts gusting to 50kts, but they were at least straight down the runway, so takeoff was quick and easy. The flight home was rather bumpy until I got up above 8.5k feet.

[donkaye, MCFI]

  On 3/2/2017 at 5:42 AM, Andy95W said:

Why not just use full flaps and fly a faster airspeed to maintain rudder authority?  I agree this technique works better in larger aircraft, but especially with a gusty crosswind, I prefer the extra drag of full flaps- when the airplane is done flying, a gust is much less likely to put you back in the air.

Expand  

Here's why not.  A few years ago coming back from Oshkosh one of our stops was Ogden, Utah.  I pulled up the ATIS, but apparently didn't listen well enough.  They were advertising 0G20.  I'd never heard that before.  On final I applied full flaps.  There really wasn't a crosswind, it wasn't bumpy, and there wasn't any variation in airspeed as I came down final.  Then it happened.  I was in the flare and was just touching down when the gust hit.  Instantly we were pushed up about 20 feet in the nose high landing attitude without the benefit of ground effect.  Anyone who has flown with me knows that I'm a "fly for the passenger" kind of person.  That's how ATPs are supposed to fly.  That means every control movement is done gently and smoothly so as not to alarm the passenger.  That was NOT called for in this situation.  Without thinking I pushed the nose down and crammed the throttle full forward, not a good thing to do with a turbocharged engine.  I figured it was a prop strike for sure, and possibly worse.  Somehow the speed at which the nose was lowered and power added saved the day, as we hit the ground somewhat hard, but not hard enough to do any damage.  I could have salvaged the landing at that point, but decided to go around and do it again--this time with approach flaps.  The second approach and landing went uneventfully.  Shirley was still upset as we pulled up to the self service fuel pump and got out of the airplane.  As I was pumping the gas in no wind conditions, all of a sudden a huge gust came up and nearly blew me over.  Shirley looked at me and we knew what had happened only minutes before.

I know that had there been a prop strike and I said a big gust came up and caused the problem no one would have believed me.  I wouldn't have believed me.  The moral of this story is that there are times when full flaps are NOT appropriate.