New Member, Very Close to Buying C Model

[Chocks]

He left out the most important part, when I did that, we barely heard the tires touch.

Thanks for helping with that brotha!


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[jlunseth]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 0:56 PM, MBDiagMan said:

 

I currently own and fly a Cessna 140, but ready for a plane capable of making it two states away in the same day.:)  

Depending on the state and what direction you fly across it, more like an hour.

[MBDiagMan]

I know, I know!  The Mooney in my profile picture is the rare high wing model.  Hopefully in a few weeks I can replace it with a new picture.

My current hangar is a box.  I am trying to figure out if I can fit both planes in there until my new hangar is ready.  If not, I am afraid that the little taildragger will be outside for a short time.

[KLRDMD]

On 1/29/2017 at 10:01 PM, carusoam said:

Quick rhetorical question...   Ken, how many planes have you bought? Some guys buy a lot of planes as part of their business.  Ken has the most experience buying planes as a private individual, like most of us around here...

14

[KLRDMD]

16 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I am also trying to get opinions regarding necessary instructor qualifications.  Is it really necessary to get someone who has done lots of transition training into a mooney.

Yes

[flyer7324]

You can certainly gain a lot of info very efficiently from a Mooney specific CFI, but don't enter into this being afraid of the "quirky" Mooney. You can smoothly land a C or F or J or R etc. at 90 knots on an appropriate length runway; it's done all the time. Just never, ever, force the plane to the ground. Being on the commonly-prescribed speed (for model and weight) makes it even easier. I would absolutely seek a specialist if transitioning into a long-body though. Even moving from a short-body to medium-body requires a bit more technique. 10 hours in type seemed about right to me. YMMV.


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90 knots is way too fast for a C F or J. 80mph on final is optimum. And it's easy to slow down. 2300 rpm and 18-17 inches will get you to gear speed.


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[cnoe]

90 knots is way too fast for a C F or J. 80mph on final is optimum. And it's easy to slow down. 2300 rpm and 18-17 inches will get you to gear speed.


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I agree, for normal opps. But 90 knots isn't an automatic prop-strike either. IMO there's way too much hype about how Mooneys are SO difficult to land. Certainly for short fields being on speed is critical but the important part is keeping the nose-wheel from touching down prematurely.

I'm neither an instructor nor a guru; I'm simply a pilot. My target speed is also Vs x 1.3 on approach and Vs x 1.2 over the numbers but I'm just as comfortable landing at 90 knots when appropriate for the situation. Sometimes with a B737 trailing me and ATC requesting best speed, 70 knots on approach doesn't seem too prudent.


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[ArtVandelay]

7 hours ago, flyer7324 said:

 And it's easy to slow down. 2300 rpm and 18-17 inches will get you to gear speed.
 

IF you aren't trying to get down and slow down at the same time. You can do or the other but not both without speed brakes.

[MBDiagMan]

I found a treasure trove on this website, the downloads.  I have been reading wheelbarrowing, crosswind landing and perusing the POH.

The downloads contain good information and I am getting very good insight into the characteristics of this aircraft.  It looks to me as if they are very tame beasts as long as you understand the characteristics which are very well described in some of these downloads.

Things are coming together.  The person doing the prebuy won't be doing it until the week of Valentine's Day.  I will start arranging delivery and training soon.  I have already had one Mooney experienced instructor and ferry pilot pointed out to me and I am impressed with him.  It is a matter of working out details.  At this point I am thinking of having him ferry the plane here, train a few days and take him home. If I am not up to speed by that time, I might get my local instructor to take him/us back to Kerrville in the plane if I am not ready to fly him home myself, I will have to see if I can roll up in a ball in the back seat for that flight.  I am 6'1" and 175 pounds so I don't know how possible that is.

There are many variable in that, not the least of which is the weather.

The long and short of it is that unless something is turned up in the prebuy, I believe this bird will be ours in a few weeks.  I am hoping to be comfortable enough by Spring Break to fly it to Galveston.

[Andy95W]

14 hours ago, flyer7324 said:

90 knots is way too fast for a C F or J. 80mph on final is optimum. And it's easy to slow down. 2300 rpm and 18-17 inches will get you to gear speed.


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I think 80 mph is too fast on final unless you are at max gross weight or have enough runway to float a while.

[bonal]

MBDman, welcome if I havent already said.  Speed control on descent in a short body is a piece of cake using the forward slip.  I bet you can slip the crap out of that 140 you fly.  As I have posted on other threads many fields I fly are close to high hills (mountains to you easterners) where a 1000 plus FPM in needed unless i want to spend time tooling around as I go down.  I cant get my D quite as sideways as I was able my 150 but still get quite a bit of aerodynamic drag and can keep my approach speed under 90MPH at over 1000 FPM.  These short body Mooney's are real fun to fly.  I hope all goes well with your new purchase and transition training.

[Skates97]

7 minutes ago, bonal said:

MBDman, welcome if I havent already said.  Speed control on descent in a short body is a piece of cake using the forward slip.  I bet you can slip the crap out of that 140 you fly.  As I have posted on other threads many fields I fly are close to high hills (mountains to you easterners) where a 1000 plus FPM in needed unless i want to spend time tooling around as I go down.  I cant get my D quite as sideways as I was able my 150 but still get quite a bit of aerodynamic drag and can keep my approach speed under 90MPH at over 1000 FPM.  These short body Mooney's are real fun to fly.  I hope all goes well with your new purchase and transition training.

My experience has been that my D handles a forward slip pretty much like the Cherokee 140's/180 that I trained in. I've never flown, or been in a long body Mooney, but the short body Mooney's are a blast.

[flyer7324]

In my plane 80 mph on final works well with 75 over the fence. 75 on final is feels too mushy.


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[Hank]

8 minutes ago, flyer7324 said:

In my plane 80 mph on final works well with 75 over the fence. 75 on final is feels too mushy.


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I do 90 mph downwind and base in my C, roll wings level on final at 85, slowing to 75 mph over the fence (less 5 mph for every 300 lbs below gross). Works well.

[mike20papa]

My opinion - when transitioning to the Mooney is the amount of attention the aircraft requires transitioning from cruise descent to pattern - compared to your 140.  The wing and drag on the Mooney is so much different, you will find power adjustments and speeds much more dependent on descent angles/speeds.  The Mooney can appear to require very little power in a mild descent, then enter the down wind, change the angle of attack, lower the gear, and it feels like you've deployed a drag chute.  My other comment is to really understand the effect of trim vs. elevator authority and yoke force during landing.  The best landings in my A model require full back trim or else I run out of elev. to make full stall, no chance of a bounce, landings.  There is no reason to hear the tires squawk , or else your too fast.  

As a tail wheel pilot, you probably will not like the linked nose wheel steering and rudder.  The Mooney has such little rudder authority, that roll out in a X wind will send you heading for the leeward side of the runway - the instant the nose wheel settles.  Different is putting it mildly.  It does respond well to adverse aileron yaw at low speed and that's a help.

[carusoam]

6' tall and 175LBs = Miniature on the American scale.

Realistically, a full sized adult fit nicely sitting sideways in the back of my C.

Get as much yoke time / real-time decision making as you can.  It wouldn't make sense to be riding in the back?  You are paying a pro to fly, get as much out of the trip as you can.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited February 2, 2017 by carusoam

[MBDiagMan]

I am very pleased with the people on this forum and appreciate the people who have made it available.  I am, however, getting frustrated with the mechanism of the forum.  Most of the time, it won't let me enter a reply.  It shows a paper clip and asks to select a file.  I have to fool around at length to get a field that wil let me key in a response.  Makes me feel too dumb to fly a plane.

Anyway, I appreciate all the comments.  Yes I can indeed slip the crap out of my 140.  When I am high I rarely fool with flaps.  It is just too easy and too much fun to slip it down, straighten up and go to approach speed.  On my last BFR, I was really close to the field I wanted to go into for my simulated emergency.  I think the instructor was impressed when I slipped it down since he is the one that taught me to do it.  In fact that is the same instructor that is the Mooney guy who will probably do my transition.

I have lots of confidence in him and he is an experienced mooney guy.  The more I think about it, the more I believe that he is well prepared to do my transition.  I doubt that he has done dozens or hundreds of transitions, but he knows Mooneys and knows how to teach.  He also told me about most of the things that you guys Have talked about before I came here to include: difficulty in slowing it down, slowing down before lowering the gear, caution about excessive air speed on approach, etc.  I am now leaning toward getting the Mooney instructor/ferry pilot to bring it here and give me the rest of the day introduction training, then my local guy take it from there.  I hope this doesn't start a debate.

I GREATLY appreciate all the great posts and private messages from everyone.  You have all helped me immensely.  Now I am just anxious to get past all the details and get that darlin' here and in the air.

[MBDiagMan]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

6' tall and 175LBs = Miniature on the American scale.

Realistically, a full sized adult fit nicely sitting sideways in the back of my C.

Get as much yoke time / real-time decision making as you can.  It wouldn't make sense to be riding in the back?  You are paying a pro to fly, get as much out of the trip as you can.

Best regards,

-a-

If I get an instructor to ferry it here from Kerrville and he doesn't get me proficient in a day or two due to weather, or my slowness to learn, I might ask my local instructor if he will curl up in the back and then fly back home with me.  If I do have to take home the ferry pilot/instructor before I am ready to fly him home I might fly him in my 140 or gas up the car and drive.  I can drive him in less time than It would take for getting him to Dallas for a flight to SanAntonio and then him driving home.  Just thinking out loud really.

[Raptor05121]

On 1/30/2017 at 1:26 AM, tigers2007 said:

My $1500 prebuy/annual a few months ago ended being like $15,000 by the time it was all over. Rises quickly when you add in shoulder belts and other bare essential must have accessories....

 

 

 

This. My "oh no more than $4k to get airworthy" turned into about 10k....

On 1/30/2017 at 1:04 PM, MBDiagMan said:

The seller is saying that due to insurance reasons he can't ferry the plane. 

 

My seller said the same thing. I have no doubt he didn't want to risk it, but at the same time, I'm sure he was hiding plenty. We did the pre-buy at his place and he was a HAWK around us.

On 1/31/2017 at 7:19 PM, MBDiagMan said:

SO..... Are these planes tricky or not?  My thinking and apparently the insurance actuaries thinking is that tailwheel time makes me statistically less risk moving to this plane than coming from some other tricycle planes.

What do you guys say?

i hope this doesn't trigger some sort of controversy.

 

1

 

Like you, I was putting these planes on too high a pedestal. They seem like speed demons that only a test pilot can wrestle to the ground. Everyone quivers and runs out of the way when a Mooney on final. When in reality, its just a  fast Cherokee is all. You flare a little lower and have to be more precise on the speeds, but its not like jumping into a F-15 or something. They are not the MOST forgiving, but they can be forgiving. On a long runway, I've been lazy and came in on final at 100mph, it just floats half the runway. It prefers 75 over the numbers and will touch at ~65. My first flight was sweaty palms and playing catch up. 2nd and 3rd flights were easier, and I solo'ed on my fourth. I bought my M20D/C with 80 hours total time. I now have about 150 hrs. Nowhere near an expert but landing is now muscle memory.
 

On 1/31/2017 at 7:55 PM, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks for the informative response.

okay, a follow up question....  Insurance requires 5hours duel.  I am fully aware that this will be a different amount for different people, but would 5 hours be typical?  Would it typically be more?

 

 

 

Mine was 5 hrs dual, 5 hrs solo prior to carrying pax.

[cliffy]

Don't make too much out of flying the airplane  It is after all, just another airplane. I had a C 140 for 22 years with 1200 hrs in it. Great airplane Slips good, spins good, even loops good :-)  You were talking about a Cessna 140 weren't you? All the others are Cherokees! The Mooney make cross country doable. Like was mentioned just control speed on final. that is the only real issue. Its more complex than the 140 but that;s part of the fun. Buy the time you get 50 hrs in it  it will feel like an old pair of shoes. The two biggest items you will have to be sure of?

Gear down and speed on final. No big deal. I always check gear down on final just before the fence by pulling on my Johnson bar just to make sure. Pun intended :-) before the knives come out!

[MBDiagMan]

Yes I was talking about a Cessna 140.  They are indeed great at little planes.  Fun and challenging, yet economical to fly.

[carusoam]

MBDM,

What hardware/viewer are you using to access MooneySpace?

MS sometimes has difficulty with various combinations of hardware and software.

If you are trying to use a small phone.... I gave up on that a couple years ago...

Best regards,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

I am using an iPad and Safari.  I made my living for 33 years in the HMI software world with much of that smack dab in the middle of Bill Gates stuff.  I rarely go there now that I don't have to do it for a living.

[MBDiagMan]

Probably doesn't mean much, but I thought it was encouraging.  I put in the tail number and found a trip on flight aware that showed 155 Knots speed for the trip.  I looked up the winds in weather history and they near calm at the time.  Of course he might have had a tailwind aloft, but at least it didn't show 130 or something.  The plane has several speed mods, so I am thinking that 150 or so might be possible.

I have been awake with a cold and I wont normally fly with a cold, so there is plenty of time to get over it before the new baby arrives.

[mooniac58]

As we use a "canned" forum product - IPBoard - there is not a lot I can do for users that don't see the site correctly.  If you send me a screen capture of something that looks "off" I can forward it to the company that makes the software.  I know a lot of users view the site on iPads.  You could also try to install the Chrome browser on the iPad.