Why is TKS fluid so expensive?

[aviatoreb]

I read on another forum, 

"TKS is a de-icing fluid composed of ethylene glycol, isopropyl alcohol and distilled water.
Specification DTD.406B requires the product to have the following approximate composition:
Ethanediol (BS.2537) 85% volume 
Isopropanol (BS.1595) 5% volume 
Distilled water 10% volume"

which I have not confirmed yet but it sounds reasonable.  The poster was European and claimed that the components could be purchased in drums and mixed for 1.35euro/liter vs 5.20euro/liter as tks fluid premixed in aviation marked bottles.

That is quite a markup for extremely simple stuff.

[Little Dipper]

The last TKS fluid I purchased was 25 gallons.  Ten individual 2.5 gallon containers which cost me $14.00 per gallon plus shipping.   I used to buy it by the drum and save a few bucks but the convenience of purchasing it by the container is worth paying a bit more. 

Norm

N995K

[exM20K]

I was told a long time ago by one of the manufacturers that it is because of the extremely fine filtering standards demanded by the spec. I don't know if 0.5 micron filtering is all that costly to do, but that's the company line.

 

 

[Zwaustin]

Great to have when you need it... on my mooney I just sold only used 9 gallons in 250 hours of flight so while expensive, where I live didn't need all that much. 

[Mark89114]

Because the unicorns that produce the stuff are very fast and have very small t***'s, therefore cost of production is high.  Simple economics my friend.

 

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I'm sure that the market for it is quite small, which likely contributes.

I've been flying with TKS for 17 years now and find the cost of the fluid to be cheap insurance.

[Piloto]

Is expensive because there is no other option. If they double the price you will still buy it.

José 

[thinwing]

3 hours ago, Joe Zuffoletto said:

I'm sure that the market for it is quite small, which likely contributes.

I've been flying with TKS for 17 years now and find the cost of the fluid to be cheap insurance.

So true!

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Piloto said:

Is expensive because there is no other option. If they double the price you will still buy it.

José 

It's true...  and since I have had a tks plane - they have / and I do still buy...

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, Joe Zuffoletto said:

I'm sure that the market for it is quite small, which likely contributes.

I've been flying with TKS for 17 years now and find the cost of the fluid to be cheap insurance.

Yeah - it's true / and I don't use a lot / just enough to wet the wings usually just in case.  On that basis 5 gallon jugs go a long way.

still any entrepreneur out there / or maybe an undergrad chem-e major could make some money buying barrels of raw ingredients and selling "Bobs-home-brew-Faa-spec-TKS fluid" at half the market going price but still on a big profit margin.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I spend $50K extra to get a FIKI TKS system & run bootleg juice through it to save $50 a year?  

 

[aviatoreb]

16 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I spend $50K extra to get a FIKI TKS system & run bootleg juice through it to save $50 a year?  

 

Why is it bootleg if it is chemically identical?

I would not be surprised if "BoBs-TKS fluid" could be FAA certified and still sold at half the other's price and be chemically identical.

Does anyone here buy generic drugs?  I do sometimes.  I am more concerned with my body being in good shape than my tks system - but I am sufficiently confident in generic drugs that I am happy with it - and I am sufficiently happy that if it confirms that tks fluid is just those 3 chemicals, with simple specs, then that if it were sold as such, then I would buy that cheaper product.

I am at a rural airport and I am the only one with tks.  If I were at a big airport with dozens of other tks planes, I would be quite tempted to form a tks home-brew club.

But mostly - I'm just enjoying the conversation...what if.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Ok, I'll buy it if it meets FAA requirements and does not void TKS system warranty.

Sign me up.

 

[bradp]

I could just as easily make micron filtered TKS in my garage as I could in my lab.

It ain't rocket science.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Ok, I'll buy it if it meets FAA requirements and does not void TKS system warranty.

Sign me up.

 

...the catch is - someone would need to buy big barrels of the raw ingredients and some sort of mixing system.  By that time, it only pays if you are making lots and lots of the stuff.  On an individual basis - its cheaper to just buy the small jugs like I do.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I buy the 2.5 gallon jugs.  Used 3 jugs in the last year. But 3 gallons is still in the tank.  I bet I use it before spring.  

[DonMuncy]

Remember that we were also told to only use Aviation Oxygen. Only years down the line we learn that now it is identical to everybody's oxygen.

[aviatoreb]

20 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I buy the 2.5 gallon jugs.  Used 3 jugs in the last year. But 3 gallons is still in the tank.  I bet I use it before spring.  

So maybe it would be good if they triple the price since it wouldn't matter?

[Jerry 5TJ]

Don't tell them, but if so I'd still buy it.

Ditto for 100LL--if it goes to $10 I'll buy it rather than stop flying.  (OK, I'd buy another turbine). 

[Piloto]

My best anti-ice option

http://www.aviationweather.gov/icing/fip

Looking at the icing maps I notice that on most situations you avoid icing by flying below 12,000ft. It seems that for pistons there is no turbo advantage to avoid icing in most cases. The icing maps can change during your trip so is a good idea to check them while in-flight.

José

[kmyfm20s]

I have never handled TKS fluid. Is there proprietary viscosity or would the viscosity be the same as mixing the 3 ingredients?

[aviatoreb]

25 minutes ago, kmyfm20s said:

I have never handled TKS fluid. Is there proprietary viscosity or would the viscosity be the same as mixing the 3 ingredients?

I was really surprised when I read it was just those 3 ingredients.  It seems to have a rather higher than expected viscosity, and it is a bit soapy almost, and it is sticky, and evaporates slowly - like I can come to the hangar like two days after a tks run and there are still a few beads of tks fluid on the wings.  Or I can run the stuff at the beginning of a flight for 5 min and find some tks moisture on the wings when I land 2 hours later.  Its impressive stuff that way.

[carusoam]

ChemE with a pharma manufacturing background...

1) get the right recipe.  

2) get the right procedure for mixing and filtering it.  Have the proper mixer and containers to mix it in.

3) have a way to Test the final result.

4) know the storage limitations of the raw materials and finished goods.

5) Know that a simple mistake can destroy somebody's TKS system or leave them exposed to the elements that they are paying to avoid...

6) Also know the safety aspects of handling this stuff.  Breathing and flammability are best known than unknown...

Hoping this sends an encouraging message.  I have fear of drinking some home brews.  I also remember a corporation that screwed up making Peanut Butter.  How hard is that?

It can probably be done, but not as simply as it sounds without taking on some additional risk.

A little more than the usual PP knowledge, but not by much...

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

If there's ice- I like hot wings and tails. Lots of hot, blown into wings and tails!

But actually, a 737 has no tail deice by design. :-)

[Jerry 5TJ]

 

5 gallons of TKS fluid, 2 each 2.5 gallon jugs, delivered to my door costs $115.  That's $23 per gallon. Including tax.  

Those are puny little US gallons, not Imperial measure.