Interesting Mooney Segment on WWOF

[Marauder]

The explanation of the weight increase for the applicable J models is covered in the first 12 minutes.

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[carusoam]

Great video!

That explains the Missile's gross weight increase without changing any tubes...

Climb ratio after a balked landing.  Gear down and half flaps at SL...

Real word situation...  and a good reason to get Mooney specific Transition Training...

Best regards,

-a-

[PTK]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Great video!

That explains the Missile's gross weight increase without changing any tubes...

Climb ratio after a balked landing.  Gear down and half flaps at SL...

Real word situation...  and a good reason to get Mooney specific Transition Training...

Best regards,

-a-

Yes Anthony. It's intetesting that no mention is made to any tubes being different. It's also interesting that the Missile has a max TO weight of 3200# and a max landing weight of 3083#. All this with a J with no tube changes.

If any J can be allowed a GW of up to 3200# why not up to 2900# ?

[mike_elliott]

10 minutes ago, PTK said:

Yes Anthony. It's intetesting that no mention is made to any tubes being different. It's also interesting that the Missile has a max TO weight of 3200# and a max landing weight of 3083#. All this with a J with no tube changes!

So were there tube changes to the eligible serial numbers according to Mooney or not?

One more time Peter...according to Mooney, yes.  Don't believe Mooney if you don't want to, but what are you trying to prove?

[PTK]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

One more time Peter...according to Mooney, yes.  Don't believe Mooney if you don't want to, but what are you trying to prove?

If, accoding to Rocket Eng., any J, irrespective of tubes, can be allowed a GW of up to 3200#, why, according to Mooney, that same J is not allowed to a much more conservative 2900#?

 

[mike_elliott]

Perhaps because the earlier ones did not/could not climb at the 10x gw landing stall speed over 2740#. If yours can, you might be able to get it recertified, just go do it!

 

[PTK]

24 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Perhaps because the earlier ones did not/could not climb at the 10x gw landing stall speed over 2740#. If yours can, you might be able to get it recertified, just go do it!

 

Thank you Mike but I don't think that's the answer to a legitimate question. Same airframe with same powerplant.

I'm simply curious. Is it an apparent math disagreement between Mooney and Rocket Eng.? Is it a different FSDO? Is it that the OEM is being held to more stringent rules?

Why the difference?

 

[mike_elliott]

2 minutes ago, PTK said:

I think it's a legitimate question and I don't think that's the answer. Same airframe with same powerplant.

 

Not true, Peter. Your logic would allow an F the same GW increase, right? How about the G? After all, it is claimed the 0360 is really as powerful as the IO360.

 Rocket engineering "got away" with it by throwing 100 additional HP up front to make the climb requirements.

Perhaps an F could do this, perhaps your 1st gen J could also meet the FAA requirements. All it takes is a bucket of money, solid engineering data and test results to get the answer you want to hear.

[PTK]

The question is regarding two identical J models. Same exact airframe with same exact powerplant will have very similar ROC. 

So with ROC being equal it seems to me that, if any J is structurally capable of 3200#, it certainly should be of 2900#. 

 

[mike_elliott]

24 minutes ago, PTK said:

The question is regarding two identical J models. Same exact airframe with same exact powerplant

So you are saying  your 83 J came and was certified with all of the same airframe and aero mods as the later ones that could pass the required FAA climb rate such as the one piece belly, etc.

IF so, you have no problem, simply inform the faa of their error. If not, Get your wallet out and go get your plane certified to a higher GW.

 

[Marauder]

As for the increased weight certification, there were a number of J planes that were eligible for the increased weight certification. To accomplish this, they needed to follow the retrofit instructions and install the retrofit kit. The kit included a new airspeed indicator, POH materials and an inspection of the rudder. Details can be found here: http://www.mooney.com/en/pdf/SL92-1_SN24_1686-2999.pdf

There is no mention of any new structural elements added to the landing gear at this time. It doesn't mean they didn't find issues later and made it a a requirement, but from the documentation I have attached, it doesn't contain that requirement.


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[PTK]

So what I can extract from this is that there are two things at play. ROC and structuraly capable to the 3200#. 

I can accept this and conclude two things:

...the tube change clearly was not needed, and

...any J that would be a Missile candidate should in theory at least be capable of the more conservative 2900# GW.

 

[ArtVandelay]

The only changes to the landing gear (from service manual) was the door changes for the faster gear extension speed and removal of the squat switch.
So I go to the FAA, show them the manual, given the new part 23 rewrite maybe they'll say sure, no problem, we're here to help...I have a dream...
I like to hear from@Piloto since he went through this process to get the long range tanks.

[PTK]

3 hours ago, teejayevans said:

The only changes to the landing gear (from service manual) was the door changes for the faster gear extension speed and removal of the squat switch.
So I go to the FAA, show them the manual, given the new part 23 rewrite maybe they'll say sure, no problem, we're here to help...I have a dream...
I like to hear from@Piloto since he went through this process to get the long range tanks.

Better yet it should be a no brainer for Rocket Eng. to STC any J that would be a Missile candidate up to 2900#. They can probably do it very easily. And I'd bet there is a market for it. I for one would be interested.

Can we get a group going and present the idea to them?

The main reason they stopped selling the Missile conversion is because Mooney adopted the general concept, i.e. Ovation. 

 

[carusoam]

Crowd sourced additional data...by hundreds of Mooney owners all over the globe in all types of environments.

hmmmmm...?

-a-

[flyboy0681]

What a treat it was watching the video. And the Barry Schiff segment was great too.

Thanks for posting it.

[gsxrpilot]

That was really good.