cnoe Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 1 hour ago, mpg said: that doesnt even look like decent 1930s tractor technology,,, I think it looks like a BS grinder way to get a jump start. I think it is a clusterfjck! But I gotta ask, where are the cables from the "Battery", in the box, that go to you plane electric system? ok I think they are in the plane and you will install the box, open it, and hook them up,,, doh! LOL! The Lycoming that spins my fan is 1930s technology as well. But I can assure you that it's a lot better way to get a jump start than taking a screwdriver to the 23 Southco fasteners, removing the access panel, opening the battery box, and then clamping jumper cables onto the little brass bolts on top of my lovely Concorde battery. And as Mooniac stated, this setup isolates the battery from the receptacle so that you can't accidentally short out your battery by sticking something inside the access door. And in answer to DaV8or... there's enough cable that the whole thing simply flops over when you open the battery box; you don't have to disconnect anything. Like Mike suggested, it's nice to have an auxiliary power source for running avionics etc. while sitting on the ground. I bought a plug like this http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/jumperplug.php and wired it directly to a set of HD jumper cables. I have a deep-cycle marine battery in the hangar and can use that to power or jump the plane easily as desired. And lastly, I've only had to get a jump once and here's how it happened. Getting ready for a long trip with my lovely wife and faithful canine I told the line guy to fill up the plane and watched from afar as he went about his work. In a bit we all piled into the plane and cold-started it for the trip. Then I realized that in spite of watching the tanks being filled I had not PERSONALLY looked in each tank since the pre-flight was done prior to the fill-up. I just KNEW the tanks were full, but with a long flight ahead of us my anal-retentive self took control and I shut down the engine for a personal tank-check. Of course they were full, but when I went to start the engine again it was already heat-soaked and I botched the start-up. After a few attempts the battery started wearing down so in order to avoid the expense of divorce I summoned the assistance of the line guy who pulled out their power cart and got me up and running. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 It is a lot easier to imagine a weak battery out of town, perhaps after a day or two parked outside in New England in freezing weather than at home in my hangar with and engine heater and a battery charger handy. And conveniently playing with the GTN, Aspen, EDM while in the hangar on external power is very appealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnoe Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 4 hours ago, Bob_Belville said: And conveniently playing with the GTN, Aspen, EDM while in the hangar on external power is very appealing. It definitely speeds up the learning curve and also helps me keep my eyes out of the cockpit while flying (instead of engaging in "Avionics 101" at 150 kts). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 A few details... my 65C had one up front, Mooney parts. Used often over a decade outside in cold NJ winters. Battery carts and FBO preheat were the norm... my O1 has one in the back. The yellow adapter plug is a nice idea. There is a problem with high tech battery chargers that sense the voltage of the system they are connected to. They won't sense the proper voltage because there is none. The solenoid won't open until 24 volts is applied, the 24v doesn't get applied until the solenoid is open... catch M22... Expect to have a 24v battery on the ground to open the solenoid, and charge the system from that. Or get one of those old 24v charges that doesn't have a brain... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pictreed Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 Bob, I think Jolie has one of these on her E. She might be able to get some pics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 8 hours ago, carusoam said: A few details... my 65C had one up front, Mooney parts. Used often over a decade outside in cold NJ winters. Battery carts and FBO preheat were the norm... my O1 has one in the back. The yellow adapter plug is a nice idea. There is a problem with high tech battery chargers that sense the voltage of the system they are connected to. They won't sense the proper voltage because there is none. The solenoid won't open until 24 volts is applied, the 24v doesn't get applied until the solenoid is open... catch M22... Expect to have a 24v battery on the ground to open the solenoid, and charge the system from that. Or get one of those old 24v charges that doesn't have a brain... Best regards, -a- Thanks. My old E is 12V. DMax, of course, pointed me to the easiest solution. Mooney parts manual: Man 226, The M20J - Illustrated Parts Catalog, pages 260-264 shows all the components we'll need. Don gets 4 items from Mooney - the access door cover, the bracket for the receptacle, a diode, and a solenoid cover. He gets the receptacle from Spruce... etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 My E has one on top of the battery box, just as in the photos above. Should be fairly easy to source the parts needed, the bracket and spring loaded door might be an issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 I would think a new battery box top preconfigured with the plug/relay and the battery access door and you are done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, RLCarter said: My E has one on top of the battery box, just as in the photos above. Should be fairly easy to source the parts needed, the bracket and spring loaded door might be an issue Exactly. See my note above referencing Parts Manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 Just now, Yetti said: I would think a new battery box top preconfigured with the plug/relay and the battery access door and you are done. I think we can use existing cover, add bracket, solenoid, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Pressley Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 I have both a ground service setup from a mooney m20J or a battery box cover one with all cables and contactor jerrt presslery 423 231 3491 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 29 minutes ago, acpartswhse said: I have both a ground service setup from a mooney m20J or a battery box cover one with all cables and contactor jerrt presslery 423 231 3491 Jerry, I have the cable and plug. What I need is the receptacle, bracket and components that go on the top of the battery box... and the hinged access cover. A salvage replacement battery box cover with the receptacle etc already mounted would be great. I'll check dim. of my battery box... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 Make sure you are sitting down if you price a new battery box . . . . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 On 11/16/2016 at 11:16 AM, Bob_Belville said: Sounds like it would work best for two functions: jump start, provide aux power to run avionics. I wonder If the latter is safe since the avionics shop has elaborate (expensive) aux power units which they hook up to work on avionics. There must be other issues and concerns re protecting sensitive electronics. Bob my setup in the M is similiar to that, I have a unit I plug in there to supply electric to run the avionics, which I purchased when learning the G1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 7 hours ago, Hank said: Make sure you are sitting down if you price a new battery box . . . . . Can't see needing a b. box. Might be able to get a salvage cover with the receptacle etc mounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 After talking to Lee Layton whose J model has external power I'm thinking I don't need the solenoid. If I'm concerned about the POS pin getting shorted I'll use a dummy plug of rubber or similar to insulate it when not in use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 11 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said: After talking to Lee Layton whose J model has external power I'm thinking I don't need the solenoid. If I'm concerned about the POS pin getting shorted I'll use a dummy plug of rubber or similar to insulate it when not in use. That sounds really dangerous. If anyone touches that pin they could get killed. Since the standard configuration includes a solenoid nobody will expect it to be hot all the time. Any mechanic or avionics tech who might remove that panel to work back there or might plug in an external power unit during maintenance could come into contact with that pin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 10 minutes ago, mooniac15u said: That sounds really dangerous. If anyone touches that pin they could get killed. You have a source for that claim? Ms. Google does not think so... https://www.lifewire.com/dangers-of-exploding-car-battery-534782 Touching that pin is the equivalent of touching the battery terminal which is what I did the afternoon with a 1/2" wrench to attach the cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 There is a 172 at my home base that has the receptacle wired direct, Its mounted inside the cowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 18 hours ago, Bob_Belville said: You have a source for that claim? Ms. Google does not think so... https://www.lifewire.com/dangers-of-exploding-car-battery-534782 Touching that pin is the equivalent of touching the battery terminal which is what I did the afternoon with a 1/2" wrench to attach the cable. You are correct that 12V is unlikely to cause direct electrocution. I was writing that quickly on my phone and I didn't really adequately describe what I meant regarding the hazard. Without the solenoid those pins will be direct connections to the battery posts. They are much closer together than the posts and accessible to inadvertent contact. If they get shorted by someone working in that area (metal tool or other object) it can generate a massive amount of heat in the battery which is only a few inches away. Also, the solenoid is designed to protect against a reversed connection to external power. The plugs are designed so that the solenoid pin gets its power from the same cable as the positive charging pin. If you connect the other end of the cable or the "plug & jump" backwards it will not open the solenoid and the battery is protected. Without the solenoid a lineman or unsuspecting tech could easily reverse the connection. Either the short or the reverse connection could cause the battery to get extremely hot and possibly even explode. In addition to the battery risk a hot pin also represents a potential spark source which could be hazardous if flammable substances are present nearby. If other people might at some point have contact with that area of your aircraft they would likely not expect that pin to be hot and might not treat it with appropriate caution. In my experience with process safety an exposed, energized port with no shutoff would be deemed a safety hazard. Another aspect to consider is, if your basis for the modification is a parts list and drawing for other Mooneys that is normally based upon the installation being done "In Accordance With Mooney drawing xxx." Leaving out part of the installation depicted in the drawing probably no longer allows you to state that it was IAW the drawing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBill Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 here is the schematic, theory: the external power is on small terminal as well as red wire, external power picks solinoid after connection to +V is already made to red line. If ext supply drops off, plane is automatically disconnected. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 My appologies to my Mooney brother Bob... I gave examples of 24V solely because that is what I have. Extra detail that didn't help make my point. My 65C had the same standard three pin plug as described by Dr.Bill. Also 12V in that installation. The three pin plug does a nice mechanical job of prentice of accidentally hooking up a mis-wired battery cart. If you need a picture, I'll be at the airport tomorrow disconnecting my battery charger... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druidjaidan Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 Related note...Anyone happen to know the part number / source for the spring that holds the door over the receptacle closed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 Druid, That would be a perfect question for Sherry at Lasar... My C's spring was half broken for the decade I owned her... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 5 hours ago, druidjaidan said: Related note...Anyone happen to know the part number / source for the spring that holds the door over the receptacle closed? 916008-009 Mooney probably through a MSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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