L3 9000+ or Garmin GTX-345?????

[Marauder]

Well, I have reach the ADS-B chasm and am about to jump in. I have been going back and forth on the ADS-B solutions and have narrowed down my selection to two contenders. I would really want honest feedback on these solutions. There is a big dollar difference in the installed prices and I want to make an informed choice. My challenge is where the GTX-345 is today with Aspen. So, here is what I am looking at;

Garmin 345 with a Flightstream 510. Why? The 345 will display weather and traffic now on my GTN. The avionics shop is telling me that the 345 AHRS will in the near future be able to feed AHRS through the 510 to feed an iPad app. Downside -- the 345 does not display anything on the Aspen at this point. And when it does, it will probably require a $800 unlock key from Aspen. The 510 will allow me to update flight plans using my Garmin Pilot app. I can also update the GTN without removing the 510.

L3 9000+ with a Flightstream 210. Why? The 9000 will immediately feed my Aspen traffic and weather without an unlock code on the MFD. It will also show traffic on my GTN but not weather. With the Flightstream 210, I can obtain AHRS to my Garmin Pilot and will be able to upload my flight plans to the GTN. It also has the ability to show active traffic -- and this is where I struggle. Active traffic will be a real benefit until December 31, 2019. After which, if most planes are flying behind an ADS-B solution, I will not need as much active traffic capability. I will get 3 years of benefit and perhaps a little more flying to areas where ADSB is not required.

Thoughts? Am I missing anything?

[Guest]

I have the L3 9000D+ coupled to my 430W and Aspen PFD.  It has been great so far.  I bought it primarily for the active traffic and got a free ADSB system and knowing that for Canada we are not facing an ADSB deadline, other than the U.S. one.

Clarence

[kevinw]

Weather display is too important to me. I'd go with the 345 and pony up the $800 later for the unlock to the Aspen.


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[XXX]

Marauder, L3 has a simulator that you can download from the App Store. I like how intuitive it is. There is a lot of function in that little box. 

[Marauder]

6 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I have the L3 9000D+ coupled to my 430W and Aspen PFD.  It has been great so far.  I bought it primarily for the active traffic and got a free ADSB system and knowing that for Canada we are not facing an ADSB deadline, other than the U.S. one.

Clarence

Clarence -- did you need to buy an unlock code for the Aspen PFD? I believe the MFD is fully unlocked and the L3 will work with it directly, but will confirm with the avionics shop. Do you have any pictures of the traffic & weather on the PFD? WOuld love to see them.

[Marauder]

Just now, Chupacabra said:

Marauder, L3 has a simulator that you can download from the App Store. I like how intuitive it is. There is a lot of function in that little box. 

Thanks for the lead on this. I will give it a try. I played with it at both Sun N Fun and Oshkosh but would like more time with it.

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, kevinw said:

Weather display is too important to me. I'd go with the 345 and pony up the $800 later for the unlock to the Aspen.


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The L3 will display weather on the Aspen. What I don't know at this point if it will display on Garmin Pilot. It might require I keep my GDL-39.

[StevenL757]

I can't remember if you mentioned it, but do you have Skywatch right now?  If not, you'll need to purchase the NY164 antenna (available separately) to use the "+" feature of the 9000+

TAS/TCAS isn't going anywhere, even after the 2020 mandate passes.  Although your 9000+ will blend ADS-B and TAS/TCAS traffic data, it's the latter that will be the more robust and capable feature, showing everything with a Mode A, C, or S transponder.  You'll experience holes in coverage with ADS-B.  Wing-X, SkyRadar, and Foreflight work with it right now, but not sure whether Garmin will get onboard and allow their Pilot app to work with it.

Wouldn't trade my 9000+ for anything...

[carusoam]

The 345 R (remote) would have some interest, if you want the additional panel space and send some weight to the back...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

15 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

I can't remember if you mentioned it, but do you have Skywatch right now?  If not, you'll need to purchase the NY164 antenna (available separately) to use the "+" feature of the 9000+

TAS/TCAS isn't going anywhere, even after the 2020 mandate passes.  Although your 9000+ will blend ADS-B and TAS/TCAS traffic data, it's the latter that will be the more robust and capable feature, showing everything with a Mode A, C, or S transponder.  You'll experience holes in coverage with ADS-B.  Wing-X, SkyRadar, and Foreflight work with it right now, but not sure whether Garmin will get onboard and allow their Pilot app to work with it.

Wouldn't trade my 9000+ for anything...

I don't have Skywatch and would need to purchase that expensive antennae. I suspect GP won't be getting in bed with them but who knows. It would be nice if it did since I already get advantage from OnePak subscription for GP. There are definite pluses with the L3 product, including its own display that the RTX-345 does not have. What I would like to do is see it in action with an Aspen PFD/MFD. Although there is a display, I have gotten pretty comfortable using the Aspens for most of the flight information I need and the GTN is relegated flight planning. 

[Marauder]

15 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The 345 R (remote) would have some interest, if you want the additional panel space and send some weight to the back...

Best regards,

-a-

The 345 would slide right into the hole for my RTX-327.

[carusoam]

The GTN750 would fit in the same spot.  And you could remote the audio panel as well!

We should visit Sanford, and unload some of the treasures we've been storing up.  

Treasures like DME and ADF... with those really modern flashy orange displays that won't last.... fine Swiss watches.... orange displays like an '87 Firebird, classic!

insert grumbles here....!

Best regards,

-a-

[Bunti]

I had the same question before my final avionics update. I decided for the 345 instead of the 9000. Reason 1  is that I wanted weather and traffic anywhere: On the Ipad, Aspen, GTN750 and on my Aera 660. Reason 2 is that  it works with the Flightstream 210, which I wanted for flightplantransfer. I will pay the unlock fee in December to get it on the Aspen PFD. On the other displays, it is alreay available. Also, I like the remote control for the 345 via the GTN 750. 

The 345 has the same size as the 330, which it replaced in my plane. I assume that the 327 has also the same size.

I would not buy the remote version, if you have room in the panel. If you need to remove the 650 or 750 for service or if it is broken, you would not have any transponder control left. The price of the remote unit and the normal one are almost the same.

I love my Flightstream 210: It is really great to plan the flight on the Ipad, start the engine and say send to 750. The flightplan will be available in the GPS immediately without entering any waypoints or airways. You just need to verify and activate. And if I  do flightplan changes on the Garmin 750 GPS, they are visible on the Ipad (if I want) and on the Aera 660.

Stefan

More photos of my panel are on my website: http://spruce-creek.de/galerie/n6377q/mooney-final-panel-upgrade/

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Marauder said:

Clarence -- did you need to buy an unlock code for the Aspen PFD? I believe the MFD is fully unlocked and the L3 will work with it directly, but will confirm with the avionics shop. Do you have any pictures of the traffic & weather on the PFD? WOuld love to see them.

Chris,

The Aspen unlock is free when you are buying a L3 Lynx.  I don't have many pictures of it running, the plane has been down since Oshkosh and is close to flying again.

I have run it with IPad and Nexus tablet with most of the popular apps, it seems to work with all of them.

Clarence

[Marauder]

I had the same question before my final avionics update. I decided for the 345 instead of the 9000. Reason 1  is that I wanted weather and traffic anywhere: On the Ipad, Aspen, GTN750 and on my Aera 660. Reason 2 is that  it works with the Flightstream 210, which I wanted for flightplantransfer. I will pay the unlock fee in December to get it on the Aspen PFD. On the other displays, it is alreay available. Also, I like the remote control for the 345 via the GTN 750. 
The 345 has the same size as the 330, which it replaced in my plane. I assume that the 327 has also the same size.
I would not buy the remote version, if you have room in the panel. If you need to remove the 650 or 750 for service or if it is broken, you would not have any transponder control left. The price of the remote unit and the normal one are almost the same.
I love my Flightstream 210: It is really great to plan the flight on the Ipad, start the engine and say send to 750. The flightplan will be available in the GPS immediately without entering any waypoints or airways. You just need to verify and activate. And if I  do flightplan changes on the Garmin 750 GPS, they are visible on the Ipad (if I want) and on the Aera 660.
Stefan

More photos of my panel are on my website: http://spruce-creek.de/galerie/n6377q/mooney-final-panel-upgrade/

Stefan -- thank you for the detailed explanation of your decision. I'm sure you went through the same agonizing process I am going through. If the 345 had active traffic and it immediately worked on the Aspens, it would be an easy decision. Since it doesn't, I am working through the pros and cons.

The big con is cost. To get active traffic, I'm looking at around a $6k difference. A lot of money. Ironically of all the upgrades I have done, this is one the wife wants. We fly VFR frequently to the shores and traffic is everywhere on a nice sunny day. The L3 with TAS will give me that coverage.

This is what I have come up with for the pros & cons;

GTX-345 Pros
> Cost
> No panel reconfiguration, will slide in the 327 opening
> Remote control of the transponder through the GTN
> AHRS capability
> Works with Garmin Pilot
> Integrated with the GTN

GTX 345 Cons
> No active traffic
> Doesn't currently display on the Aspens
> Will cost me addition $800 to display on the Aspens
> No independent display to show weather and traffic

L3 9000+ Pros
> Active traffic
> Will display traffic on the GTN, no weather
> Integrates with the Aspens now
> Has its own display

L3 9000+ Cons
> Cost
> Will require a significant panel redesign
> Won't display on Garmin Pilot and I don't like the other apps
> Transponder not remote controlled
> No AHRS

So this is the ping pong game I'm going through in my head. It is coming down to the importance of active traffic now and the foreseeable future.


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[StevenL757]

If you'd like to see the 9000+, let me know.  I'm available all day today and over the weekend, so happy to meet up if you'd like a look at this system in action.

Rgds, Steve

[Bob - S50]

12 hours ago, Marauder said:

The avionics shop is telling me that the 345 AHRS will in the near future be able to feed AHRS through the 510 to feed an iPad app.

The GTX345 can already display AHRS in Garmin Pilot without a FS210 or 510.  Just connect them via bluetooth.  If I'm not mistaken, if you use an iPad (I use Android) you can even pay extra and get synthetic vision.

[Bunti]

If you want a second display for weather or traffic or notams, you can use the Aera 660. It is talking to the 210 and to the 345. The  display can even show taxi charts, frequencies or a synthetic vision picture and warns you about close obstacles or terrain. You can connect it to the audio panel and to your aircraft power. In my Mooney, it is attached to the panel via a  removeable ram mount.

With the 345, you see all the traffic with ADS-B out: They send the position on both ADS-B frequencies directly to the 345. Also, you see the normal traffic with a Mode C Transponder, which is received by an ATC radar antenna and redirected to you. As long as you fly in the US, this works  fine. Only if you fly somewhere in the US, where no radar coverage is available and the traffic has only a Mode C Transponder without ADS-B out, you will not see it. Also traffic without Mode C Transponder will not be seen any time. But this is the same with an active traffic system: No Transponder, no traffic information on any system. Only ATC may be able to detect traffic without a transponder as primary radar target, if they search for metal in the sky.

Latest in 2020, almost everybody in the US will have ADS-B out. That means the 345 will receive all the traffic directly, even in rural areas with no low altitude radar coverage.

I considered, buying the active system, but decided against it because most of my flying is in the US. 

Stefan

[Marauder]

44 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

If you'd like to see the 9000+, let me know.  I'm available all day today and over the weekend, so happy to meet up if you'd like a look at this system in action.

Rgds, Steve

Hey Steve! That would be great. You look like you are on the Island, any ideas where/when?

[StevenL757]

PM sent.

[Marauder]

11 minutes ago, Bunti said:

If you want a second display for weather or traffic or notams, you can use the Aera 660. It is talking to the 210 and to the 345. The  display can even show taxi charts, frequencies or a synthetic vision picture and warns you about close obstacles or terrain. You can connect it to the audio panel and to your aircraft power. In my Mooney, it is attached to the panel via a  removeable ram mount.

With the 345, you see all the traffic with ADS-B out: They send the position on both ADS-B frequencies directly to the 345. Also, you see the normal traffic with a Mode C Transponder, which is received by an ATC radar antenna and redirected to you. As long as you fly in the US, this works  fine. Only if you fly somewhere in the US, where no radar coverage is available and the traffic has only a Mode C Transponder without ADS-B out, you will not see it. Also traffic without Mode C Transponder will not be seen any time. But this is the same with an active traffic system: No Transponder, no traffic information on any system. Only ATC may be able to detect traffic without a transponder as primary radar target, if they search for metal in the sky.

Latest in 2020, almost everybody in the US will have ADS-B out. That means the 345 will receive all the traffic directly, even in rural areas with no low altitude radar coverage.

I considered, buying the active system, but decided against it because most of my flying is in the US. 

Stefan

Stefan -- what mount are you using to attach it?

[Bunti]

It is attached with a ball ram mount. It has been done by the avionics shop. The mount is installed in the place where the old Narco CDI had been removed. If I remember right, the mount is about 25 Dollars. In addition, I bought  the bare wire mount for the 660. You just need to push the release button on the 660 to remove it.

[donkaye]

On 10/7/2016 at 4:20 AM, Marauder said:

The big con is cost. To get active traffic, I'm looking at around a $6k difference. A lot of money.

 

You can get the Garmin GTS 800 active traffic for $9,300 (That's what I paid).  if you buy when Garmin has rebates, then it would cost even less.  That's not much more than the cost stated above.  Also, with the GTX 345 and GTS 800 you will get TargetTrend, one of the most valuable benefits of the Garmin package.

[Marauder]

10 hours ago, donkaye said:

You can get the Garmin GTS 800 active traffic for $9,300 (That's what I paid).  if you buy when Garmin has rebates, then it would cost even less.  That's not much more than the cost stated above.  Also, with the GTX 345 and GTS 800 you will get TargetTrend, one the most valuable benefits of the Garmin package.

I do like the target trends. Will be obtaining quotes on all of the recommendations above and hopefully can make a decision!

[M016576]

6 hours ago, Marauder said:

I do like the target trends. Will be obtaining quotes on all of the recommendations above and hopefully can make a decision!

I have a feeling that as a card carrying member of the CB's, once you see the quotes, you'll know what to do! Hah!