m20k emergency gear deployment

[OldFlyGuy]

Hi folks, I'm not a Mooney pilot, but I have a need to know a detail of Mooneys, an M20K specifically. If the engine stops, what is the procedure for lowering the gear? Is it a push-button procedure that activates an electric motor that runs a hydraulic pump to deploy the gear? Or must the pilot manually lower the gear by pumping a handle? If the latter, about how long does it take to complete the operation?

Okay, those questions probably seem strange, so I should explain. A few months ago, a friend died in a crash of his M20K when the engine stopped. I am just trying to put the details together in order to help his family and friends understand what happened. Answers to my questions should help.

 

[peevee]

It's outlined in the poh. Find a copy online.

The system is electrical and would not be impacted by the engine unless the battery was exhausted.  

Edited July 2, 2016 by peevee

[Guest]

Engine failure has nothing to do with landing gear operation.

Clarence

[Yetti]

 

[BillC]

 

7 hours ago, OldFlyGuy said:

Hi folks, I'm not a Mooney pilot, but I have a need to know a detail of Mooneys, an M20K specifically. If the engine stops, what is the procedure for lowering the gear? Is it a push-button procedure that activates an electric motor that runs a hydraulic pump to deploy the gear? Or must the pilot manually lower the gear by pumping a handle? If the latter, about how long does it take to complete the operation?

Okay, those questions probably seem strange, so I should explain. A few months ago, a friend died in a crash of his M20K when the engine stopped. I am just trying to put the details together in order to help his family and friends understand what happened. Answers to my questions should help.

 

OldFlyGuy,

  Are you an attorney? 

Mooneyspace pilots,

  Please do not respond to this question. It's odd that a pilot wouldn't know where to get this information without asking us. I find it difficult to believe 'family or friends' would find comfort in knowing how the gear operates. It sounds like someone looking for possible reasons for a lawsuit. If I'm wrong....I apologize.

Either way I am sorry for your lose.

[carusoam]

OFG,

Sorry for your loss.  Any loss within the Mooney community is felt by the whole community.

You may want to introduce yourself so we can help you better.  Can you share the name or the tail number of the pilot and his plane?

Please understand that many of us are not experts in handling these situations.  We may type something that could be misunderstood. 

I hope you find some comforting answers to your question.

Best regards,

-a-

[OldFlyGuy]

Thanks for your caring reply. Good idea for me to introduce myself -- I probably should have done that before jumping smack into the middle of a close-knit forum. I was just trying to be brief and ask a couple of straightforward questions about an airplane that I am not familiar with.

My name is Mel, got my Private SEL certificate in 1971, added a Private sailplane rating a few years later. Have flown Cessnas, Indians (Cherokees, Arrows and such), and Schweizers. By the way, I once flew a Schweizer, a 2-22 I think, at a glider club in New Jersey, but can't remember exactly where it was. I don't fly anymore – da gubment has made it too expensive. The legendary "$100 cup of coffee" is probably up around $300 now!

The M20K I mentioned, N96398, belonged to Ross Grand, who I have known since he was a child, some 35+ years ago. He died in a crash at KOCF on 09 Apr 16. I know Ross' mother and other family members, his fiancée, and many of his friends. There is a preliminary accident report on the NTSB web site for anyone interested in reading it. However, since it is preliminary, it does not contain all the known details.

Ross' fiancée, a non-pilot, was his passenger that day; incredibly, she sustained only relatively minor injuries. I spoke with her about the crash, and a couple of things she mentioned made me wonder what the true cause was. Sorry, I cannot at this time discuss things she told me until I have permission to do so. Ross was a very experienced Commercial pilot and former Instructor, with a full complement of ratings, and about 1700 - 2000 hours of flying time under his belt. It is unlikely that he made some rookie mistake.

My reason for asking questions on this forum was to learn how normal operation of the landing gear works, along with whatever mechanical backup system may be in place. My first idea was to find an online copy of the POH. I ditched that plan because I don't want to know how to operate the gear; I want to know how it works. I don't know any A&Es, so I came here.

Mr. Caruso (your name, right?), I appreciate the thoughtful tone of your reply, and I hope my wordy response here gives you a feel for the nature of my questions. Neither Ross' mother nor his fiancée are pilots, and since I understand “pilot-speak”, my goal is to translate our lingo and buzzwords into standard English to give them better insight into the tragedy that took the life of their loved one.

So, could someone please tell me how Mooney landing gear works, both in normal conditions and with the engine stopped? Not how to do it, but how it works.

Thanks to all for your consideration.

 

[Marauder]

With the exception of Mooneys with the mechanical system (Johnson bar), the gear is electric and will operate with or without the engine running.

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[OldFlyGuy]

 

4 hours ago, BillC said:

OldFlyGuy,

  Are you an attorney? 

Mooneyspace pilots,

  Please do not respond to this question. It's odd that a pilot wouldn't know where to get this information without asking us. I find it difficult to believe 'family or friends' would find comfort in knowing how the gear operates. It sounds like someone looking for possible reasons for a lawsuit. If I'm wrong....I apologize.

Either way I am sorry for your lose.

Apology accepted (you were wrong about everything you wrote). Not a lawyer, and if "Conclusions" were a city 1000 miles away from you, I bet you could jump there in a single bound, and then find yourself in the wrong city! Maybe you should have asked me to explain why I was asking before you got snippy....

Okay, you were rude, so I was rude right back at you. I'm ready to be nice now if you are.

Please take a minute to read my response to carusoam for a better insight into my motive. In my original post, I asked questions for exactly the reason I stated.

[OldFlyGuy]

20 minutes ago, Marauder said:

With the exception of Mooneys with the mechanical system (Johnson bar), the gear is electric and will operate with or without the engine running.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I thank you (and the others who have told me pretty much the same thing) for the info. Back in the 1960s, I once rode in an M20, maybe a B or C? I distinctly remember the "Johnson Bar" between the seats. As I try to make sense of the recent fatal accident, I will add what you folks have explained to me to what I have gleaned from other sources.

In another post, peevee mentioned the rip cord and the football. Could you comment? I don't know what he meant.

Thanks!

[Marauder]

20 minutes ago, Marauder said: With the exception of Mooneys with the mechanical system (Johnson bar), the gear is electric and will operate with or without the engine running.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I thank you (and the others who have told me pretty much the same thing) for the info. Back in the 1960s, I once rode in an M20, maybe a B or C? I distinctly remember the "Johnson Bar" between the seats. As I try to make sense of the recent fatal accident, I will add what you folks have explained to me to what I have gleaned from other sources.

In another post, peevee mentioned the rip cord and the football. Could you comment? I don't know what he meant.

Thanks!

I have no idea what he meant by the "football". Electric gear Mooneys have a switch to lower the gear with electrical power available. It can be lowered manually with either a mechanical crank mounted next to the pilot's left knee (older Mooneys) or by pulling a cord located between the pilot and co-pilot seats (newer Mooneys). That is probably what he is referring to as a "rip cord". Both systems can work without the electrical system or engine operating.

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[midlifeflyer]

My first idea was to find an online copy of the POH. POH. I ditched that plan because I don't want to know how to operate the gear; I want to know how it works.

Your  first idea is still pretty good. You are still going to do pretty well looking at the gear and emergency extension system in Section 7 of the POH, which you may recall, is the section that describes aircraft systems, not checklists for their operation. Most everything you have read here is in there.

The more difficult part is translating  that information into something useful for understanding what sadly happened to your friend and his fiancée. Offhand, reading the preliminary report, it seems unlikely the gear was involved.

 

[peevee]

8 hours ago, Marauder said:

I have no idea what he meant by the "football". Electric gear Mooneys have a switch to lower the gear with electrical power available. It can be lowered manually with either a mechanical crank mounted next to the pilot's left knee (older Mooneys) or by pulling a cord located between the pilot and co-pilot seats (newer Mooneys). That is probably what he is referring to as a "rip cord". Both systems can work without the electrical system or engine operating.

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Looks like this. Photo in the first post.

Your F probably doesn't have. The J/K does.

Edited July 3, 2016 by peevee

[Marauder]

8 hours ago, Marauder said: I have no idea what he meant by the "football". Electric gear Mooneys have a switch to lower the gear with electrical power available. It can be lowered manually with either a mechanical crank mounted next to the pilot's left knee (older Mooneys) or by pulling a cord located between the pilot and co-pilot seats (newer Mooneys). That is probably what he is referring to as a "rip cord". Both systems can work without the electrical system or engine operating.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Looks like this. Photo in the first post.

Your F probably doesn't have. The J/K does.

I looked at the picture in the post. I have the floor indicator shown, just never called it a "football". I can see why you do though.

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[Marauder]

Please note well.  The information i have posted is for your own personal use. It may not in any form be disseminated for use in any legal redress against any person or company wherever they are located.  This statement is made in accordance with the laws of England and Wales and will be governed as such.  

OMG! A Barrister just showed up on the site!

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[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

OMG! A Barrister just showed up on the site!

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LOL. I wonder wonder what law is being references. It reads a bit  like one of those privacy notices that quote some made-up US law and make the Facebook rounds periodically

[firefly201]

OFG, Sorry for your loss. I read the NTSB report. The engine "sputter-cough" and the gear operation wouldn't be connected. My Mooney brothers are correct, the gear operates electrically (off battery power) or manually IF the NO Back Clutch Spring hasn't broken. We all try to learn from these tragic accidents. According to controller reports Mr.Grand was on RWY 36, 7467ft. at 200-300 altitude just North of the tower and made the decision to make Rwy 26 to save the airplane. https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1882512,-82.2464817,3866m/data=!3m1!1e3. Whether this was correct I will leave to the NTSB. I will leave my brothers with some thoughts for the next emergency. Low and slow turns with questionable power? I haven't been to KOCF but after RWY 36 it's approx. 2,700 ft to I-40 with no structures.

[mike_elliott]

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 11:22 PM, OldFlyGuy said:

Thanks for your caring reply. Good idea for me to introduce myself -- I probably should have done that before jumping smack into the middle of a close-knit forum. I was just trying to be brief and ask a couple of straightforward questions about an airplane that I am not familiar with.

My name is Mel, got my Private SEL certificate in 1971, added a Private sailplane rating a few years later. Have flown Cessnas, Indians (Cherokees, Arrows and such), and Schweizers. By the way, I once flew a Schweizer, a 2-22 I think, at a glider club in New Jersey, but can't remember exactly where it was. I don't fly anymore – da gubment has made it too expensive. The legendary "$100 cup of coffee" is probably up around $300 now!

The M20K I mentioned, N96398, belonged to Ross Grand, who I have known since he was a child, some 35+ years ago. He died in a crash at KOCF on 09 Apr 16. I know Ross' mother and other family members, his fiancée, and many of his friends. There is a preliminary accident report on the NTSB web site for anyone interested in reading it. However, since it is preliminary, it does not contain all the known details.

Ross' fiancée, a non-pilot, was his passenger that day; incredibly, she sustained only relatively minor injuries. I spoke with her about the crash, and a couple of things she mentioned made me wonder what the true cause was. Sorry, I cannot at this time discuss things she told me until I have permission to do so. Ross was a very experienced Commercial pilot and former Instructor, with a full complement of ratings, and about 1700 - 2000 hours of flying time under his belt. It is unlikely that he made some rookie mistake.

My reason for asking questions on this forum was to learn how normal operation of the landing gear works, along with whatever mechanical backup system may be in place. My first idea was to find an online copy of the POH. I ditched that plan because I don't want to know how to operate the gear; I want to know how it works. I don't know any A&Es, so I came here.

Mr. Caruso (your name, right?), I appreciate the thoughtful tone of your reply, and I hope my wordy response here gives you a feel for the nature of my questions. Neither Ross' mother nor his fiancée are pilots, and since I understand “pilot-speak”, my goal is to translate our lingo and buzzwords into standard English to give them better insight into the tragedy that took the life one.

So, could someone please tell me how Mooney landing gear works, both in normal conditions and with the engine stopped? Not how to do it, but how it works.

Thanks to all for your consideration.

 

Mel, The Mooney Summit has reached out to Gina and provided financial and offered crisis intervention support. Shelby, Ross Grant's ( I believe his name is Grant not Grand, please correct me if I am wrong) cousin has provided us contact info and is a pilot who can also provide a lot of support for Ross's mom and you locally. Shelby can certainly go into detail with you and vet your concerns.

The gear is a mechanical mechanism that is activated by an electric motor to raise and lower it. This is done by moving the gear switch to the down position.  An engine failure would not interrupt the operation of this system. While not on the NTSB investigative team, I personally don't believe the state of the landing gear played a roll in the accident. I do recall hearing of a  witness say the plane stalled as the gear went down, and I heard rumors of the tower instructing "check gear down".  Not fact just hearsay

[BillC]

11 hours ago, OldFlyGuy said:

 

Apology accepted (you were wrong about everything you wrote). Not a lawyer, and if "Conclusions" were a city 1000 miles away from you, I bet you could jump there in a single bound, and then find yourself in the wrong city! Maybe you should have asked me to explain why I was asking before you got snippy....

Okay, you were rude, so I was rude right back at you. I'm ready to be nice now if you are.

Please take a minute to read my response to carusoam for a better insight into my motive. In my original post, I asked questions for exactly the reason I state

No conclusions were made. Read my post again then get  a dictionary and look up 'conclusion'.

Snippy? I don't like people who ask for two minute tutorials on how a system works then go back to 'family and friends' and act like they are professionals on the subject. You are not the person to explain how this system works. Get someone who can.

 

23 hours ago, OldFlyGuy said:

Hi folks, I'm not a Mooney pilot, but I have a need to know a detail of Mooneys, an M20K specifically. If the engine stops, what is the procedure for lowering the gear? Is it a push-button procedure that activates an electric motor that runs a hydraulic pump to deploy the gear? Or must the pilot manually lower the gear by pumping a handle? If the latter, about how long does it take to complete the operation?

Okay, those questions probably seem strange, so I should explain. A few months ago, a friend died in a crash of his M20K when the engine stopped. I am just trying to put the details together in order to help his family and friends understand what happened. Answers to my questions should help.

 

What neophyte would understand the complexity of the emergency extension system or would care for such detail. Especially since the gear had nothing to do with the accident. And 'How long does it take to complete the operation'? Again, what do these questions have to do with accident?  Your questions are suspect 'Mel'. I stand by my post.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, BillC said:

What neophyte would understand the complexity of the emergency extension system or would care for such detail. Especially since the gear had nothing to do with the accident. And 'How long does it take to complete the operation'? Again, what do these questions have to do with accident?  Your questions are suspect 'Mel'. I stand by my post.

It's really easy to suspect motives. After all, as a Geico commercial might say, "That's what we do." 

I can certainly see some reality to the tale. A family in distress over a loved one. They turn to a friend who happens to be a pilot, figuring he would know, just to ask "How could this have happened?" 

It's happened to me far too many times, friends not in any way related to the accident, asking me about a major story in the media about a crash, for me to automitically discount it. And if he's searching for a reason to sue. It takes a fertile imagination to think lawyers bring suit on expensive aviation case based on "Well, SGOTI said..."

[ArtVandelay]

GARA protection prevent lawsuits on planes older than 18 yrs.

[midlifeflyer]

17 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

No not a lawyer although one did tell me what to write and no its not a made up law, strangely enough outside of the USaa there are other countires, like England and Wales. The law in Scotland is different . . 

The post was made so that if OfG does want to sue  someone he cannot use my photos or comments as evidence unless of course he wants to be prosecuted in the UK. 

I'm well aware of that and I was when I made the comment. I saw that you referred to the "law of England and Wales" and that your profile says you in the UK.  I even know that UK companies use the "law of England and Wales" as part of their general disclaimers for the use of their websites, much as US companies make jurisdictional statements on their websites. 

I used the Facebook nonsense (which also makes the rounds in the UK) as an example and my wondering continues.No one would be able to use your comments and photos as evidence in the US anyway, regardless of your notice. 

[ALP]

I'm not familiar with this accident but, I wouldn't get hung up on gear operation causing a crash. Mooneys land safely with gear up.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, ALP said:

I'm not familiar with this accident but, I wouldn't get hung up on gear operation causing a crash. Mooneys land safely with gear up.

So does just about every other airplane. Mooneys are not alone in a gear-up landing being a non-event from a pilot/crew/passenger safety standpoint.

[chrisk]

Yes, it does sound like a lawyer has been involved somewhere.  i suspect the source is certain Piper aircraft have an automatic gear drop as the airspeed gets to slow, and I think if the engine quits.  A few accidents have been blamed on this feature. . Picture the argument.  He would have made the runway, but the gear came down and made him come up short.

Rest assured, if the gear came down on a Mooney, it's because the pilot put it down.