Let's play the IFR GPS game

[jetdriven]

7 minutes ago, clh said:

One real CB question is what would it take to certify the 89b for non-precision approaches?  That would get you in to most airports at 500 ft ceilings.   

You do have a couple of years before you have to be ADS-B compliant....

 

 

 

About 4 grand, it needs a special proprietary indicator that has the annunciators installed, plus its only installed for VFR, meaning power and ground thats basically it, so 2500$ for install if the unit plus indicator, basically.  And its not WAAS and when the screen goes bad, and it will eventually, we get to pay for all that again.  But we'll need to rip it out anyways in 3.5 years.

[Becca]

1 hour ago, glafaille said:

I'm thinking the OP is not afraid of spending money like some of us are, myself included.  Bearing in mind that he likely spent over $60,000 in less than 5 years on  a factory reman engine and a paint job, it seems likely that he is looking for more than a bare bones panel.  This sort of fellow is not going to buy a used 430W or a Garmin 155, only new, top shelf gear will do.

With that in mind, I thnk that something similar to Bob Belville's panel or Marauder's panel is in order.  Anything less would truly be out of character.  Therefore, I vote for the $40,000 panel and guess that the "out the door" price will probably exceed that..

The original poster is a she.  She has a husband who likes to shop and a third partner in ownership, all with equal votes on the checkbook

Actually the shopper in the partnership declared it can't be done for less than 30 AMUs, which is why I crowd sourced this question.  We all know it can be done with less and more so the real question is what do those delta AMUs buy you and is it worth it?  Still haven't decided, none of us have.  Thus this lively conversation. 

 As you've mentioned the plane has some significant airframe and engine upgrades already (though the damage is not as bad as your estimate), so the buck has to stop somewhere, as it were.  Ironically when we bought it we planned to do the panel first. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by Becca

[larryb]

A really nice panel can be had for the cost of a single year of university for one kid.

[glafaille]

Becca-

Please accept my apologies for assuming you were a male Mooney owner.   I guess my age is showing.  Of course there are plenty of very capable female pilots and aircraft owners.

Used avionics offer great value, but the risk is how long will Jeppesen still supply data, and how long will the manufacturer support it. The day that parts dry up or data is no longer available is the end for that piece of equipment.  That day is much closer for used equipment, especially less popular models.

For a well financed partnership, purchasing used, hardly makes sense as the cost can be split between the partners.

I agree with those that proclaim the virtues of a good autopilot for IFR, it's an essential piece of equipment, especially with the FAA looking over our shoulders more and more (ADS-B).  A good autopilot reduces stress and increases safety as much as any other piece of equipment.

The pest way to approach the problem is to determine the mission and the budget and then prioritize.  It's hard for us to help with your decision unless we know what these factors are and what equipment you currently have.  

Can you provide more info?  Maybe some pictures of your panel?

[N9453V]

1 hour ago, Becca said:

The original poster is a she.  She has a husband who likes to shop and a third partner in ownership, all with equal votes on the checkbook

Actually the shopper in the partnership declared it can't be done for less than 30 AMUs, which is why I crowd sourced this question.  We all know it can be done with less and more so the real question is what do those delta AMUs buy you and is it worth it?  Still haven't decided, none of us have.  Thus this lively conversation. 

 As you've mentioned the plane has some significant airframe and engine upgrades already (though the damage is not as bad as your estimate), so the buck has to stop somewhere, as it were.  Ironically when we bought it we planned to do the panel first. 

Becca,

I think it could be done well below 30 AMU...

GTN 650 is about $10k, probably $3k install for $13k total

GTX 335 is $3k, probably $1k install for $4k total

An overhauled KCS-55A HSI is $7k (https://www.gulfcoastavionics.com/products/600-reconditioned-kcs-55a-system.aspx), probably another $1k for install, so $8k total. Can be even cheaper if you go with a used system.

This install would be about $25k total (say another $1k to integrate with autopilot) and would give you a WAAS GPS, ADS-B OUT (1090 ES) and HSI.

 

-Andrew

[PMcClure]

1 hour ago, Hyett6420 said:

I am very fortunate in that my aircraft, was owned by an airline so has everything for flying ifr in the 80s. All King, dual altimeters, garmin transponder gtx 330 and a KFC 150.  So in answer to your question.

• HSI is a must
• autopilot with flight director, alt hold, and approach capability is a MUST in double big letters, have you ever seen an airline hand fly?  
• We are about to remove the GLN39 vfr GPS and replace it with a GTN650.  (Approx 12 uk AMUs) purely for the reason you ask the question which is ifr coupled GPS.  Ours doesn't at the moment. (Course is on an iPad!) 
• For plates and fore flight etc, just use an iPad. 

This will give you everything you want.  You DONT need glass all over the place.  If your King or whatever it is is working leave it in place, unless you go the full Garmin route with glass I personally don't feel it gives you anything whatsoever except smaller pupils as it is brighter. 

So budget approx 15 AMUs and I don't think you will go far wrong assuming you have an HSI and auto as speed above already.  

Andrew

Agree 100%. And glass instruments fail too. Perhaps as often os the analog stuff in my experience. And you can replace and upgrade as new things come out. Your not stuck with one supplier or upgrade path. I don't understand all the fuss about any of these systems. 

[jclemens]

No way I would recommend installing a KCS55.  It was a great piece of equipment in it's day, but that day has passed.  If faced with needing an HSI, an Aspen Pro is the most economical route, followed by the G500.  

[Becca]

7 hours ago, glafaille said:

Becca-

Please accept my apologies for assuming you were a male Mooney owner.   I guess my age is showing.  Of course there are plenty of very capable female pilots and aircraft owners.

Used avionics offer great value, but the risk is how long will Jeppesen still supply data, and how long will the manufacturer support it. The day that parts dry up or data is no longer available is the end for that piece of equipment.  That day is much closer for used equipment, especially less popular models.

For a well financed partnership, purchasing used, hardly makes sense as the cost can be split between the partners.

I agree with those that proclaim the virtues of a good autopilot for IFR, it's an essential piece of equipment, especially with the FAA looking over our shoulders more and more (ADS-B).  A good autopilot reduces stress and increases safety as much as any other piece of equipment.

The pest way to approach the problem is to determine the mission and the budget and then prioritize.  It's hard for us to help with your decision unless we know what these factors are and what equipment you currently have.  

Can you provide more info?  Maybe some pictures of your panel?

Hahaa sorry I figured you thought I wasn't just any "he", but my husband who does tend to be the type of spender you describe.  Jetdriven posted a picture of our panel a page back on this thread.

For this exercise (really a crowd sourced game) the only mission is to define a IFR gps (for approaches) solution and determine what delta-benefit you get at each price point.  I think the only other question is how long will we own - that's an unknown to us.  Maybe 5 years maybe 15 more years, we won't be selling in the next couple years that's for sure.

For what it's worth is seems the lowest price point is a used 430W and then everything delta is something more than that. I am also concerned about the aging nature of that unit and support.  But am I 10 or 20 AMU concerned?  I don't know, maybe?.  Trying to scope the problem with this little game.  

[jclemens]

GTN 750 will not disappoint.  

[Bob_Belville]

Becca, that new paint job on that slick, fast airframe with the fresh engine deserves at least the 750/Aspen combo. With that a GDL88 gives you ADS-B i/o and puts traffic and weather right on that big 750 screen. The cost of installation argues against going with used avionics. And Byron could do most of the install to add the JPI 930 to clean up and centralize all those engine gauges. 

All this should be much easier to justify for 3 owners flying 200 plus hours per year than it was for me with my old E model - one owner flying 75-100 hours per year. What else are you going to do with that money? Waste it on food, clothes, and pensions?   

[jclemens]

Aspen also just released the GDL88 compatibility software, allowing you to put weather and traffic on the Aspen as well.  

[rbridges]

26 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

What else are you going to do with that money? Waste it on food, cloths, and pensions?   

haha.  that's crazy talk.

[Bob_Belville]

22 minutes ago, jclemens said:

Aspen also just released the GDL88 compatibility software, allowing you to put weather and traffic on the Aspen as well.  

I have a 750 and an Aspen (single screen EFD 1000 Pro PFD). ISTM the much larger 750 screen is much better for weather and traffic and I do not expect to add that spftware. I'm sure a 2 screen Aspen installation, like Marauder has, would be fine.

[cnoe]

As a fairly new student of all things avionic, why would I need a HSI?

My full screen IFR WASS GPS gives me situational awareness and my AP couples with the Garmin CDI/GS display just fine. Foreflight confirms the navigation situation nicely (with SV too).

Just making sure I'm not missing something here. Besides, being a hopeless optimist I still believe avionics will only get cheaper in the coming years.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, cnoe said:

As a fairly new student of all things avionic, why would I need a HSI?

My full screen IFR WASS GPS gives me situational awareness and my AP couples with the Garmin CDI/GS display just fine. Foreflight confirms the navigation situation nicely (with SV too).

Just making sure I'm not missing something here. Besides, being a hopeless optimist I still believe avionics will only get cheaper in the coming years.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No one NEEDS an HSI.  But fly with an HSI which combines the CDI/GS and your DG into one, easy to read/fly instrument, and you'll never want to fly IFR without it.  You're welcome to come out and shoot some approaches in my C anytime you like. I'm sure you easily meet the open pilot on my insurance policy.  And I'll handle the gear for you. ;-)

[cnoe]

That makes sense; you basically reduce the number of instruments in your scan. I can see how that would make hand-flying approaches easier.

I renewed currency last weekend too but had to do it under the hood as we haven't had ceilings below the FAF altitude for days. It sucks how you can build time in "actual" and still struggle to remain "current".

I often practice "coupled" approaches VFR flying solo just to stay on top of the AP nuances, but when I have a safety pilot I prefer to hand-fly for proficiency.

Thanks for the offer, I'll likely take you up on that sometime.

[Chocks]

Dear lord tiny baby Jesus, looking at all those panel upgrades!!

Please, oh please don't let my wife divorce me when I try and follow suit!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Becca]

3 hours ago, rbridges said:

haha.  that's crazy talk.

Someone convince jetdriven to stop buying cars and we can talk... We're up to 5 again for the household, and I only have 1 for myself, so...

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, FlyingSchmidt said:

Dear lord tiny baby Jesus, looking at all those panel upgrades!!

Please, oh please don't let my wife divorce me when I try and follow suit!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Since we are talking religious themes. When you chose your wife, did you?

 

[cnoe]

3 hours ago, rbridges said: haha.  that's crazy talk.

Someone convince jetdriven to stop buying cars and we can talk... We're up to 5 again for the household, and I only have 1 for myself, so...

I got the opportunity to drive that sweet new yellow '76 Lincoln the other day. Gawd I love a big block 460! Vrrrrroooom! But I heard THAT purchase was your dad's fault.

[romair]

Here is my take:

GPS unit: GTN 750 or IFD 540. You can consider GNS 530W, but that is quite old technology. At this point I would buy an airplane that has a 530W in it, but I would likely not install one in my airplane. 

Display: Either Aspen (probably most economical version) vs a G500. HSI is a possibility, and again, I would buy an airplane that has an HSI, but that is not what I would install in the airplane.

Engine monitor: I think this is extremely important, especially if you fly IFR in a single engine. You will likely not get your money back on it, but I view it as a safety issue and investment in your well being...it would probably make the airplane more likely to sell. Don't skimp on that - something like EI MVP 50P or the JPI equivalent would be the right choice.

Audio panel...something newer than what's in there, but that is not a necessity. 

Transponder: Probably a GTX 345, but I would wait on that another 1-2 years and see what else comes down the pipe.

The problem is that you do not plan on having this airplane indefinitely. The panel that you have is very outdated, and no matter how you dice it, you will end up losing money on it when you sell. You can put old stuff in, like a 430 and an HSI wing it for a few years then sell...but then again you would be not really be enjoying your current airplane. When you sell, if your panel is not upgraded your price will have to reflect that..and then you will be competing with most Mooneys that are under the 100k pricepoint. If you upgrade the panel, which will make your airplane stand out, you will have a much smaller buyer pool that can afford the higher price. Damn if you do,damn if you don't. That's why if you plan to keep it forever, then it makes more sense to do whatever you want without any remorse.

Take a hard look at how much the plane is worth now and how much you are willing to spend. 40-50k to update the panel is probably the right number, but then you will loose a good chunk of that in 5 years when your are getting ready to sell. That doesn't even take into account the AP which is quite outdated. It may be worth considering selling what you have and buying another one that has most or all of what you want...you would probably come out ahead as long as you buy something that reliable. 

[carusoam]

1) If I had plenty, I would go all big G. But, I don't yet...

2) If I had three pilots sharing one plane, I'd be closer to having plenty...

3) Simpson (From Avidyne) gives us this link for a 40AMU budget...

4) Brand new WAAS navigators with many bells and a few whistles...

5) with all the upgrades and adjustments to the current ride, there is little chance of upgrading to a LB?

6) or Missile?

Trying to get both Byron and Ross migrated onto the IO550 program,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

All this talk of about cost and resale value! Do you guys/gals live in a beige house and drive white cars to optimize resale appeal? If you're main objective is to minimize cost you need to find another hobby, flying ain't for you.

OTOH, if the priorities are safety, speed, sex appeal, personal satisfaction, pride, comfort, bragging rights or similar noble motives then as Admiral Farragut (perhaps) put it "Damn the Torpedoes, Full speed ahead." 

[N9453V]

6 hours ago, jclemens said:

No way I would recommend installing a KCS55.  It was a great piece of equipment in it's day, but that day has passed.  If faced with needing an HSI, an Aspen Pro is the most economical route, followed by the G500.  

I understand that a lot of people like glass panels, but saying they are more economical is rather disingenuous in my opinion. An overhauled KCS-55A with warranty is $7k tops, can be found used for probably $2k and overhauled for another $2k... an Aspen Pro is $11k and is MUCH more expensive to install.

Anyone flying hard IFR pretty much needs an HSI... an Aspen doesn't give you any more capability to justify the cost and the reliability is very suspect (https://bonanza.org/forums/index.php?topic=1273.0). I considered replacing my KCS-55A when the gyro needed an overhaul; the avionics shop in Conroe, TX advised against it, saying that they'd had numerous customers who'd been through 3 or more replacements in under 1 year. In 6 years of using a KCS-55A and around 1100 hours of hard IFR, I've only had 1 $600 repair on the unit. 

-Andrew

[N9453V]

7 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Becca, that new paint job on that slick, fast airframe with the fresh engine deserves at least the 750/Aspen combo. With that a GDL88 gives you ADS-B i/o and puts traffic and weather right on that big 750 screen. The cost of installation argues against going with used avionics. And Byron could do most of the install to add the JPI 930 to clean up and centralize all those engine gauges. 

All this should be much easier to justify for 3 owners flying 200 plus hours per year than it was for me with my old E model - one owner flying 75-100 hours per year. What else are you going to do with that money? Waste it on food, clothes, and pensions?   

Remember the GDL88 is only UAT, so you're restricted to flying below FL180 and may face restrictions operating internationally.

-Andrew