wishboneash Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Interesting bit of news. I thought there was no pilot shortage, just salary "shortages". http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/JetBlue-s-trial-approach-Will-train-novices-to-6874608.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Interesting bit of news. I thought there was no pilot shortage, just salary "shortages". http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/JetBlue-s-trial-approach-Will-train-novices-to-6874608.php Not surprised. Two of my friends here who are ATPs but never flew for an airline were contacted within the last 6 months to see if they were interested in pursuing an airline career. Both are in their 50s, so I doubt either considered it. Didn't Lorne over on the PoA site take one of the airlines based in the Midwest up on it? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpaul Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Four years and $125K out of pocket. Hope they have access to some trust fund babies that are willing to give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 34 minutes ago, kpaul said: Four years and $125K out of pocket. Hope they have access to some trust fund babies that are willing to give it a go. That works out to about $83 an hour which short of pencil whipping is cheaper than you will probably do it yourself now that 1500hrs are required. Keep in mind the airline industry is about the only place where you can have lifetime earnings $5-6M with a high school diploma. It is somewhat like winning the lottery but for those who the stars align a bit for they do exceptionally well and even the guys who get to the majors late or don't get there at all it is still a good long term paying gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 I don't know much but I do know it beats the crap out of what I have been doing for the past 33 years. If I were younger I would definitely be looking at ATP or ATC as a career path. If the airlines are looking to really create a more direct path then why not. I'm not sure why the unions are in a twist I would think the successful candidates would become members and start paying their union dues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMuncy Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, M20F said: Keep in mind the airline industry is about the only place where you can have lifetime earnings $5-6M with a high school diploma. It is somewhat like winning the lottery but for those who the stars align a bit for they do exceptionally well and even the guys who get to the majors late or don't get there at all it is still a good long term paying gig. I wish I knew what the real numbers and percentages are. If your odds of making major airline's captain's pay is high, then it would make a lot of sense. But my impression is that most of them start out making $30 or $40K per year, and I suspect that many may not ever get into the big money. It would be interesting to see how pilots compare to guys going though trade schools like automotive mechanics, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 12 minutes ago, bonal said: ...... I'm not sure why the unions are in a twist I would think the successful candidates would become members and start paying their union dues Union is protecting their regional pilots who are already paying dues. They are just looking out for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, fantom said: Union is protecting their regional pilots who are already paying dues. They are just looking out for us I agree but why cant a regional move up into that seat if they are needing the positions filled. I have been paying my dues for 33 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 6 hours ago, wishboneash said: Interesting bit of news. I thought there was no pilot shortage, just salary "shortages". The point is that the United States has a lot of pilots who are under 65 years old who have over 1500 hours. The question then is how many of them are willing to get paid less than $30k/year their first few years for the "honor", "prestige", and "glamour" of being an airline pilot so that they can be away from home half the month and double their odds of getting a divorce? It isn't easy being a regional airline pilot and look across the ramp at the bag smashers who get paid more than you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 2 hours ago, kpaul said: Four years and $125K out of pocket. Hope they have access to some trust fund babies that are willing to give it a go. I interpreted to mean that Jetblue is paying for the training, much like Lufthansa pays for all of the training costs for their pilots from PPL through ATP. If they are hired then Lufthansa gets back part of the training costs through salary reductions over a period of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 17 minutes ago, N1395W said: The point is that the United States has a lot of pilots who are under 65 years old who have over 1500 hours. The question then is how many of them are willing to get paid less than $30k/year their first few years for the "honor", "prestige", and "glamour" of being an airline pilot so that they can be away from home half the month and double their odds of getting a divorce? It isn't easy being a regional airline pilot and look across the ramp at the bag smashers who get paid more than you. A lot of professional jobs have a very slow start up the prestige pile. Doctors pay a lot of money out of pocket post college to get through med school then mediocre/poor pay and long hours as interns before finally breaking out. The road to professor, my career, is 5 years+ for a PhD post undergrad, as a TA if you are lucky at $25k (or nothing if you are not in the right field) so then 5 years after undergrad, you get to go for a post doc (assuming it is going well) still at low pay, for 2 or 3 years, before finally being considered for a tenure track.... takes a long time to break in, but its good honest and secure work if you can get there. I don't think piloting is all that much better or worse if you enjoy the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Mostly it's a scam. Just like very few ball players make the huge bucks, but thousands of kids beat their brains out for just the chance. The vast majority of pilots don't make much until the end of their career. Throw in airlines folding, merging, or screwing their employees through bankruptcy and it's a very iffy career path. Only consider it if you love flying enough to do it for free. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Just now, aviatoreb said: takes a long time to break in, but its good honest and secure work if you can get there. "A man who loves his job doesn't work a day in his life". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 14 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said: "A man who loves his job doesn't work a day in his life". Well said. Honestly - I never noticed I was getting paid poorly when I was getting paid poorly - no kidding. And now that I am getting paid well, I am sort of surprised. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Just now, aviatoreb said: Honestly - I never noticed I was getting paid poorly when I was getting paid poorly Should have done the math on that one.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 24 minutes ago, M20F said: Should have done the math on that one.......... You don't know math professors like I know math professors. We are people who are REALLY good with numbers who forget to even think about how much more money they might have earned if we used our skills elsewhere, because we are too happy thinking about abstract concepts from number theory, to C* algebras, to dynamical systems and chaos theory (me), to infinite dimensional Sobolov spaces. We are happy simple folk. I have been in airports hearing grumpy pilots talking about how their pain schedules and hours are annoying. I have also met professional pilots who are "and they pay me to do this?" sorts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpaul Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said: I interpreted to mean that Jetblue is paying for the training, much like Lufthansa pays for all of the training costs for their pilots from PPL through ATP. If they are hired then Lufthansa gets back part of the training costs through salary reductions over a period of years. If that were the case then It would be a great program, coming out of the training with 1500 hours debt free. However, straight from the article. "The applicants will pay for their own training." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, kpaul said: If that were the case then It would be a great program, coming out of the training with 1500 hours debt free. However, straight from the article. "The applicants will pay for their own training." That is pretty goofy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpaul Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Just now, aviatoreb said: That is pretty goofy. Agreed, if you are going to drop that kind of time and cash, might as well go to a school and get a degree at the same time, at least then you have something else to fall back on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 4 minutes ago, kpaul said: Agreed, if you are going to drop that kind of time and cash, might as well go to a school and get a degree at the same time, at least then you have something else to fall back on. If you spend $125K on this program and complete it at age 23 to become a flying the line FO, and upgrade in ten years to A320/321 Captain then based on current JetBlue contract (70 hrs minimum guarantee only, no per diem, etc.) you will earn $6,523,440.00 by 65. JetBlue isn't the best paying airline out there by a long shot and all the little side deals of manipulating contract pay add million(s) to the final life time earnings. Early pay in the airline industry is terrible, this is how seniority based pay systems work. If your airline goes bust and you have to restart seniority somewhere else it hurts but you still earn a huge a massive multiplier more than a high school graduate. If you want to factor in a four year degree, they just want the paper so any online university certificate mill degree works so the barrier to entry there is pretty small in terms of $$$. It is a highly lucrative and well paying industry but like any industry you have to make smart career decisions and be willing to suffer (as Erik shares in his own example) to get to the promised land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Compare to an engineering degree from Rutgers, a NJ state school. $30k X 4 = $120k. Starting salaries for Chemical Engineers = $46,700. 5 years experience = 70k 10 years = 80k 20 years = 100k Siri supplied these numbers, not from real experience... Start working at 21 years old, Finish at 65 years old if you want to... 44 years. Looks like the same 6MM is possible over the lifetime of an engineer. Save and invest wisely.... Same corporate hassle, same corporate downsizing. For a really interesting life, marry a girl who does the same kind of work as you... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 1 hour ago, kpaul said: If that were the case then It would be a great program, coming out of the training with 1500 hours debt free. However, straight from the article. "The applicants will pay for their own training." I missed that. Remind me to call Evelyn Woods to get my money back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishpilot Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 What I took from the article is that airlines are forecasting increased growth that will outpace current pilot supply. That, combined with the increase to 1500 hrs for ATP, shrinks an already small pool. That program may or may not work, but I think it shows that the airlines will have to come up with creative ways to create qualified pilots. This increase in demand is also affecting the regionals, and this is still a free market economy. If the demand far outpaces the supply of regional pilots, pay will increase. I think the next 10 years, barring any 9/11 type event, will be good for those wanting to fly for the airlines. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDPetersen Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 United had a similar program in the '60's. The difference being they only had to get a candidate to 200 hrs and a Commercial/Instrument. Don't know how many pilots they turned out that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 I think the future looks bright for Indian and Chinese pilots working for American carriers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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