Cirrus Down in TX near the pattern 60R

[M20F]

2 minutes ago, takair said:

Perhaps a compromise of sorts.  You are right, we want folks to know what the horn is and what happens from there, but you don't want them thinking too much about it in the pattern.  Regarding tail stall, I would argue that the stall vane is looking at the wing, not the tail, so the horn indicates a wing stall. 

Correct the stall horn indicates a wing stall (as does probably every AOA indicator in a GA airplane).  My comment was that understanding the actual concepts behind a stall beyond Vs/Vso and the horn blaring is important, not that the stall horn is going to blow when the tail stalls.  Sorry if my response was unclear.

8 minutes ago, Yetti said:

 nor thinking about wing loading theory.

I don't think about theory but I am pretty cognizant of what happens when I pull back on the stick base to final, the people that don't are the ones we read about.

Edited March 2, 2016 by M20F

[PTK]

The base to final turn is notorious for leading to deadly accelerated stalls because the concepts involved are not clearly understood. For the benefit of student pilots who may be reading this thread angle of bank matters and here's why:

In a bank the wing has to generate additional lift than it does in level flight brcause it  has to turn in addition to supporting the airplane. The horizontal component is used to turn and the vertical component supports the airplane. 

This additional lift is generated by higher AOA. So it follows that for a given airspeed, when banked the airplane flies at a higher AOA than it would in 0 bank. And because it's flying at a higher AOA it's that much closer to the critical AOA and stall. This stall in a bank is at a higher airspeed than a level stall. These are three very important pieces in the puzzle that must be understood. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

The base to final turn is notorious for leading to deadly accelerated stalls because the concepts involved are not clearly understood. For the benefit of student pilots who may be reading this thread angle of bank matters and here's why:

In a bank the wing has to generate additional lift than it does in level flight brcause it  has to turn in addition to supporting the airplane. The horizontal component is used to turn and the vertical component supports the airplane. 

This additional lift is generated by higher AOA. So it follows that for a given airspeed, when banked the airplane flies at a higher AOA than it would in 0 bank. And because it's flying at a higher AOA it's that much closer to the critical AOA and stall. This stall in a bank is at a higher airspeed than a level stall. These are three very important pieces in the puzzle that must be understood. 

In addition I was told and shown in flight that the upper wing has a greater angle of attack and stalls first in the turn.  The lower wing is not stalled which causes the plane to roll rapidly over the stalled upper wing.  

Clarence

[jetdriven]

it depends on the coordination. The airplane will stall left or right depending on which way the ball is displaced. I used to show folks this in the rental A36 checkout.  Roll to a 45 degree bank. If the ball is centered the wing stalls, the nose drops at the same 45 degrees of bank. Left or right rudder it will stall and rolll that direction.  Anything more than slight rudder is a snap roll input. Laminar flow wings like Mooneys its even more important to be coordianted.   But its really no big deal,  its a FTFA airmanship deal.

Edited March 2, 2016 by jetdriven

[Shadrach]

12 hours ago, teejayevans said:

If you have to make 30+  banked degree turn in the pattern, short of some emergency like collision avoidance or engine failure, I would say you already showed poor judgement or skills and trying to save a landing by doing a steep turn is a bad idea.

whats the saying about using superior judgement to avoid having to use superior skills?

Have you ever flown a "fun" airplane with low wing loading, say a Luscombe or maybe an Aeronca Champ?

45 degrees of bank in the pattern is not "dangerous", it's not poor judgement and it's not difficult. It just requires understanding. If 30 degrees is what you like to limit yourself to, than good for you but it's an arbitrary number.  Bank angle does not cause a stall/spin, exceeding critical AOA does. A proficient pilot should be  comfortable making descending turns at more than 30 degrees. I often practice power off abeam numbers to land. I fly tighter patterns and I plan for steeper turns. 

Moreover, I would caution any instructor to think twice about drilling into a student that 30 degrees is the limit of what's "safe" in the pattern; it may induce a new pilot to rudder into an unsafe skid when another 5-10 degrees of coordinated bank would have done the job.

I love Mooneys, but I think we get so hung up on the notion of having a "personal airline" that we start flying patterns like it's an airline.

[Shadrach]

31 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

it depends on the coordination. The airplane will stall left or right depending on which way the ball is displaced. I used to show folks this in the rental A36 checkout.  Roll to a 45 degree bank. If the ball is centered the wing stalls, the nose drops at the same 45 degrees of bank. Left or right rudder it will stall and rolll that direction.  Anything more than slight rudder is a snap roll input. Laminar flow wings like Mooneys its even more important to be coordianted.   But its really no big deal,  its a FTFA airmanship deal.

Off topic...did you get my last email?

[Hank]

56 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Have you ever flown a "fun" airplane with low wing loading, say a Luscomb or maybe an Aeronca Champ?

45 degrees of bank in the pattern is not "dangerous", it's not poor judgement and it's not difficult. It just requires understanding. If 30 degrees is what you like to limit yourself to, than good for you but it's an arbitrary number.  Bank angle does not cause a stall/spin, exceeding critical AOA does. A proficient pilot should be  comfortable making descending turns at more than 30 degrees. I often practice power off abeam numbers to land. I fly tighter patterns and I plan for steeper turns. 

Moreover, I would caution any instructor to think twice about drilling into a student that 30 degrees is the limit of what's "safe" in the pattern; it may induce a new pilot to rudder into an unsafe skid when another 5-10 degrees of coordinated bank would have done the job.

I love Mooneys, but I think we get so hung up on the notion of having a "personal airline" that we start flying patterns like it's an airline.

Sometimes I blow the base to final timing and end up wide right. I don't bank steeper. I don't pull on the yoke. I don't give it more rudder. I do hear my primary CFI's voice, "don't change anything, stay coordinated and just fly back to final." So that's what I do, I keep the turn going beyond 90° and aim to intercept final before the numbers. If the wind is that strong pushing me and it's not easily achievable, I go around and start the turn sooner. 

No muss, no fuss, no startled passengers or bystanders on the ground.

[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

Sometimes I blow the base to final timing and end up wide right. I don't bank steeper. I don't pull on the yoke. I don't give it more rudder. I do hear my primary CFI's voice, "don't change anything, stay coordinated and just fly back to final." So that's what I do, I keep the turn going beyond 90° and aim to intercept final before the numbers. If the wind is that strong pushing me and it's not easily achievable, I go around and start the turn sooner. 

No muss, no fuss, no startled passengers or bystanders on the ground.

I have done the same.  I have also flown the pattern cross controlled from abeam the numbers to the threshold.

I think it is important to stay coordinated at low speed.

I think it is important to stay coordinated and level (or nearly) at very low speed.  i.e. 1.2Vso and below.

What I consider low speed varies with weight. What is slow at gross is not so slow with just me and 20 gals of fuel.

I think a lot of pilots would benefit from doing slow speed high rate descents (<1G) at altitude. 

Another good exercise (maybe best done with an instructor for the first time) - on a smooth day at larger strip (say 4500 or more) stay at pattern altitude all the way through final, slowing to 1.2Vso. When the approach end of the runway threshold becomes obscured under the nose, cut power completely (but leave hand on throttle at all times) and descend to the runway using pitch to hold the speed between 1.1 and 1.2Vso. I think most would be surprised at how easily a Mooney (or most any other plane) will come done.

 

[PTK]

On February 29, 2016 at 9:45 AM, gsxrpilot said:

The pilot was an experienced CFI. Very sad, RIP.

Experienced at what? I just read that there were two small children who perished in this accident! This is very disturbing. An "experienced" CFI would not allow two children 7 and 11 years old in the airplane on a training flight with a new to the pilot airplane.

Total lack of judgment on both of them, pilot and CFI, imo. But part of the CFI's job is to teach good decision making and use of judgment. This is a complete failure. 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

 

Another good exercise (maybe best done with an instructor for the first time) - on a smooth day at larger strip (say 4500 or more) stay at pattern altitude all the way through final, slowing to 1.2Vso. When the approach end of the runway threshold becomes obscured under the nose, cut power completely (but leave hand on throttle at all times) and descend to the runway using pitch to hold the speed between 1.1 and 1.2Vso. I think most would be surprised at how easily a Mooney (or most any other plane) will come done.

 

This almost happened to me once flying into KLUK for lunch. I was tail-end Charlie behind an A36 and an F, my first time there, somewhat distracted going under the Bravo low from way out. I was fairly new then, still don't do many straight in approaches. So I held speed 80-85 mph, full flaps, throttle to idle and touched down well down the runway. I was probably pushing 2000' agl a mile or so from the threshold . ..  Still wasn't sure I was going to make it. It's a rather nose-high attitude compared to a normal landing, mushing along and down. So far, I've not had a repeat incident. Probably could have gone a little slower, but not as a new pilot!

[Shadrach]

16 hours ago, takair said:

One thing that bothers me about the way we teach about stalls is the fact that, with the stall horn blaring, the instructor prods the student to "keep pulling" so they can experience the buffet and perform a recovery.  It seems to me, that this reinforces Poor behavior for the easily influenced student.  In an ideal world, I would think that we should teach "push" at the moment the horn comes on.  

I understand where you are coming from, but I have never felt inspired to pull when the stall horn sounds unless stalling is my goal.  The stall horn simply tells you that you are nearing the edge of controllable flight, the buffet tells you that you've arrived at the edge of controllable flight, and the stall tells you that you've crossed the line.  It seems pretty progressive to me.

[Shadrach]

59 minutes ago, Hank said:

This almost happened to me once flying into KLUK for lunch. I was tail-end Charlie behind an A36 and an F, my first time there, somewhat distracted going under the Bravo low from way out. I was fairly new then, still don't do many straight in approaches. So I held speed 80-85 mph, full flaps, throttle to idle and touched down well down the runway. I was probably pushing 2000' agl a mile or so from the threshold . ..  Still wasn't sure I was going to make it. It's a rather nose-high attitude compared to a normal landing, mushing along and down. So far, I've not had a repeat incident. Probably could have gone a little slower, but not as a new pilot!

In some of the more draggy airframes out there, you will actually touchdown pretty close to the section of runway that was obscured by the nose at TPA.  

[PMcClure]

12 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Have you ever flown a "fun" airplane with low wing loading, say a Luscombe or maybe an Aeronca Champ?

45 degrees of bank in the pattern is not "dangerous", it's not poor judgement and it's not difficult. It just requires understanding. If 30 degrees is what you like to limit yourself to, than good for you but it's an arbitrary number.  Bank angle does not cause a stall/spin, exceeding critical AOA does. A proficient pilot should be  comfortable making descending turns at more than 30 degrees. I often practice power off abeam numbers to land. I fly tighter patterns and I plan for steeper turns. 

Moreover, I would caution any instructor to think twice about drilling into a student that 30 degrees is the limit of what's "safe" in the pattern; it may induce a new pilot to rudder into an unsafe skid when another 5-10 degrees of coordinated bank would have done the job.

I love Mooneys, but I think we get so hung up on the notion of having a "personal airline" that we start flying patterns like it's an airline.

I agree 100%. But the 30 degree bank (my instructor told me 20) is a good rule of thumb. If you are there flying a normal pattern and landing and you find yourself at a high bank angle to line up with final, you better think twice. This can happen when you misjudge winds for example. However, if you are out having fun and know what you are practicing, that is a different situation. 

[Shadrach]

17 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

I agree 100%. But the 30 degree bank (my instructor told me 20) is a good rule of thumb. If you are there flying a normal pattern and landing and you find yourself at a high bank angle to line up with final, you better think twice. This can happen when you misjudge winds for example. However, if you are out having fun and know what you are practicing, that is a different situation. 

The thing is, unless I have passengers, I am always having fun!

[PMcClure]

43 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

The thing is, unless I have passengers, I am always having fun!

Let's hope so. But if you find yourself unintentionally in a 45 degree bank and overshot from base to final with passengers, please roll out and try again! Thank you!

[wishboneash]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

Sometimes I blow the base to final timing and end up wide right. I don't bank steeper. I don't pull on the yoke. I don't give it more rudder. I do hear my primary CFI's voice, "don't change anything, stay coordinated and just fly back to final." So that's what I do, I keep the turn going beyond 90° and aim to intercept final before the numbers. If the wind is that strong pushing me and it's not easily achievable, I go around and start the turn sooner. 

No muss, no fuss, no startled passengers or bystanders on the ground.

We have parallel runways at Livermore (aligned east-west) and during certain times of the year, we have strong north-south winds. Overshooting base to final is not an option. Going around would still imply coming close to the parallel runway but climbing to avoid conflicting traffic on final hopefully below you at that point. And then expecting a earful from the controller!

[takair]

7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I understand where you are coming from, but I have never felt inspired to pull when the stall horn sounds unless stalling is my goal.  The stall horn simply tells you that you are nearing the edge of controllable flight, the buffet tells you that you've arrived at the edge of controllable flight, and the stall tells you that you've crossed the line.  It seems pretty progressive to me.

I have not felt inspired to pull either, but I keep asking myself why so many stall/spin accidents with such an abnoxious horn going off?  I don't mind doing stalls in the Mooney, but in general we are not duplicating the same scenario.  In common training we slowly sneak up on the stall, nose up, horn blaring, wings relatively level.  Even in instruction, the CFI is prodding most students to pull a little more...not quite there....  I think that the turn to final variation takes people by surprise because it is nothing like what they experience at altitude with the CFI, minimal time for recovery or advance notice.  Spin training in a 172 isn't quite the same as a high performance plane, but I certainly would not advocate accelerated stalls in a turn in a Mooney as common training.  In discussions, most of us seem to get it.  What happens?  Are the warning signs ignored, not heard, not reacted to fast enough?  I don't know the answer.  I'm sure many of the accident victims had this same discussion at some point.  Is there some insidious variation that sneaks up on us?  I hope not.  Good discussion.

[Hank]

The DPE on my Instrument check ride had me do an accelerated, climbing, turning stall, like I blew it on departure / miss climbout. I think it was a right turn. Being extremely nervous, I recovered immediately at the buffet. But I have demonstrated MCA flight for several minutes, with turns in both directions, stall horn blaring the while time--that was for a Flight Review, I remember the surprise on the CFI's face as I kept going and going and turning and turning with no buffet.

[carusoam]

Rob,

I would expect distraction aided by the cognitive overload of the stressful environment, generates some funky results.  Distraction as in the thing that causes GU landings.  Happens with CFIs on board as well.

unfortunately, few survivors are able to tell what happened.

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, takair said:

I have not felt inspired to pull either, but I keep asking myself why so many stall/spin accidents with such an abnoxious horn going off?  I don't mind doing stalls in the Mooney, but in general we are not duplicating the same scenario.  In common training we slowly sneak up on the stall, nose up, horn blaring, wings relatively level.  Even in instruction, the CFI is prodding most students to pull a little more...not quite there....  I think that the turn to final variation takes people by surprise because it is nothing like what they experience at altitude with the CFI, minimal time for recovery or advance notice.  Spin training in a 172 isn't quite the same as a high performance plane, but I certainly would not advocate accelerated stalls in a turn in a Mooney as common training.  In discussions, most of us seem to get it.  What happens?  Are the warning signs ignored, not heard, not reacted to fast enough?  I don't know the answer.  I'm sure many of the accident victims had this same discussion at some point.  Is there some insidious variation that sneaks up on us?  I hope not.  Good discussion.

My bet is that many base to final stalls happen when a pilot tightens the turn by ruddering into a skid. Uncoordinated and the inside (slow) wing stalls with little warning; the airplane snap rolls before the pilot knows what happened. 

[DXB]

Here's a question related to stall/spin during a skid that I've never understood:   I get why stalling in a slip is much less serious than stalling in a skid, and why the latter results from rudder overuse to correct base to final overshoot being discussed here.  What I don't understand is why the so called "side slips" that we use for crosswinds aren't actually skids at times and so have their own set of low altitude stall-spin accidents.  If the aileron input isn't enough to balance the rudder input (e.g. when I do a crappy job of stopping the drift when over the runway and slowing to stall), why doesn't this frequently end with a violent wing drop?  Sorry if I'm being dense here.

 

[gsengle]

Because you do them usually when you're too fast... To slow down. So not going to stall...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hank]

I think he's talking about the regular crosswind landing, nice and slow, with lots of rudder one way and lots of aileron the other way to maintain runway alignment.

My opinion:  the over-ruddered skid has more rudder and / or less aileron. There's also no bank happening as we descend those last few tens of feet and settle into the runway, so stall speed isn't any higher than normal.

[Shadrach]

43 minutes ago, DXB said:

Here's a question related to stall/spin during a skid that I've never understood:   I get why stalling in a slip is much less serious than stalling in a skid, and why the latter results from rudder overuse to correct base to final overshoot being discussed here.  What I don't understand is why the so called "side slips" that we use for crosswinds aren't actually skids at times and so have their own set of low altitude stall-spin accidents.  If the aileron input isn't enough to balance the rudder input (e.g. when I do a crappy job of stopping the drift when over the runway and slowing to stall), why doesn't this frequently end with a violent wing drop?  Sorry if I'm being dense here.

 

I believe that it's because in a skid, the aircraft is rotating around the inside wing. Creating asymmetrical airspeed. The outside wing is traveling faster and has more lift. Inside wing loses lift in the skidding turn. Pilot tries to pick up inside wing with aileron which increases the AOA on the inside wing and decreases AOA on the outside wing causing the inside wing to stall...snap roll city.  In a proper side slip both wings are held perpendicular (more or less) to the relative wind so they are getting the same airflow, even though they are at different AOAs. 

[1524J]

So here's my thoughts......the Cirrus accident in Florida hit a little close to home. I'm an instrument rated pilot with a little over 650 hours, 500 of that in a Mooney. I consider my self an amateur pilot but competent. Sounds a lot like the guy in Florida. I think I've gotten complacent over the years with always flying the standard pattern, never pushing any limits, basically a "tow the line" kinda guy. After reading this thread, viewing a couple of the video's and needing my biennial, I called my CFI and said lets go flying. It'd been awhile since I'd done power off, 180 degree turns or pulling power abeam the numbers to land. I guess my point.....and a little confession, is that I need to practice these maneuvers more than an hour every other year. You get in a situation where split second decisions need to be made and it needs to be muscle memory that kicks in.