DaV8or Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 IMO, I think it comes down to the size of the glass. The small Aspen displays leave me thinking that they are not that big of a deal and in fact, tend to try to cram too much information into too small an area. The G1000 on the other hand, with laptop sized screen configured to be a huge AI with synthetic vision, how can that not be a safety improvement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 I'm with DaV8or on this one..... [1] With steam gauges all lined up, I travel down the GS with trust that the runway will be at the end. What if (under great stress) I forgot to switch the HSI from GPS to VOR/ILS or tuned the wrong frequency? [2] With chart symbols or synthetic vision on the glass HSI, I travel down the same GS with the additional sight picture that in fact a runway will be at the end. Just to be clear, I am a steam gauge driver and I have no synthetic vision. It seems to me that there are technical advantages of glass systems. I use my GPS to confirm in fact the pot of gold is at the end of the approach. Overall, both systems are complex and require familiarity with their operation. The limit on either system is still the Mark I eyeball and brain operating system version 1.0. The only thing worse than leaving the gear up when it should be down, is following nav needles that are tuned to something different than you think. humbled by the discussion, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 this is a great mooney site!!!I am new mooney bravo driver,and first thing I did was update the existing 430/530 to waas...than I found out what I could get in trade for existing king hsi/king 256i attitude gyro/garmin cdi etc ...installed g5oo with gad43 to talk to kfc225 auto..threw in a used gdl69a..panel mounted 696..and never looked back...yeah I know it didnot make economic sense,but neither did the a/c in the first place...after 6months/130 hrs...count me a believer...kpc.....Ps..if allsmiles is interested..I have some old hf AN gear I would part with cheap....than he could really brag about using old tech!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzie Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Quote: thinwing this is a great mooney site!!!I am new mooney bravo driver,and first thing I did was update the existing 430/530 to waas...than I found out what I could get in trade for existing king hsi/king 256i attitude gyro/garmin cdi etc ...installed g5oo with gad43 to talk to kfc225 auto..threw in a used gdl69a..panel mounted 696..and never looked back...yeah I know it didnot make economic sense,but neither did the a/c in the first place...after 6months/130 hrs...count me a believer...kpc.....Ps..if allsmiles is interested..I have some old hf AN gear I would part with cheap....than he could really brag about using old tech!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Quote: jezzie I have a photoshop layout and can't seem to cut and paste to this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Quote: jezzie thinwing, I am wondering if you have pictures of your panel, I've pretty much made up my mind to go full garmin in my J model including a G500. I would like to see how yours looks. I have a photoshop layout and can't seem to cut and paste to this thread. I agree this is a great site, I have learned so much from just by listening Eldon "Jezzie" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docket Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Never go to College Station. UT is the only place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 Quote: docket Never go to College Station. UT is the only place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 I have read this string a few times and I have a question for those guys that did this mod. If you have to keep the airspeed indicator, artificial horizon and altimeter (you maintaining the failure modes of the cert basis) when you install the Garmin unit, Is there a way to replace the function of the turn and bank indicator to keep the PC functioning? or do you have to keep that indicator as well? I guess I have the same question for Peter who installed the 3 aspen units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docket Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 Quote: Parker_Woodruff Sic 'Em Bears. You in Austin to watch that fine football team tomorrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docket Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 Quote: tony I have read this string a few times and I have a question for those guys that did this mod. If you have to keep the airspeed indicator, artificial horizon and altimeter (you maintaining the failure modes of the cert basis) when you install the Garmin unit, Is there a way to replace the function of the turn and bank indicator to keep the PC functioning? or do you have to keep that indicator as well? I guess I have the same question for Peter who installed the 3 aspen units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 The 1965 M20C has it's own gyro for the wing leveler blind mounted back by the vacuum actuator for the step. As you leave the cockpit, you can hear the gyro winding down.... -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 Quote: thinwing yeah I know it didnot make economic sense, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Quote: tony I have read this string a few times and I have a question for those guys that did this mod. If you have to keep the airspeed indicator, artificial horizon and altimeter (you maintaining the failure modes of the cert basis) when you install the Garmin unit, Is there a way to replace the function of the turn and bank indicator to keep the PC functioning? or do you have to keep that indicator as well? I guess I have the same question for Peter who installed the 3 aspen units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 For those of you who have done the G500 conversion, what training/training aids did you use to transition to your new panel? I get that the money will never be recouped so I plan on flying the plane and getting my enjoyment from it. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 well as you can see this is an old thread...and after 2 years of ifr use..I still love the display.The transition was handled with an x airforce u2 pilot cfii that reallyhelped me develop a new scan...more like a horizontal line than at or h pattern.While handflying low approaches i use the velocity vector (little green ball with wings)by setting it right where my touch down point will be on the runway depictedon the synthetic vis.This is primary..secondary is hsi display and glidescope diamond...this is all on the left hand primary flight display...the right screen is showing all the waypoints on the approach plus xm weather etc.....it has been very reliable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketAviator Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 I am one that recently installed the G500 with SVT glass panel upgrade. I used the online training aids by Garmin and there is a host of other online videos and forums, all of which I found very useful. I called Garmin and they sent me a DVD bit it was the same as can be found online. The turn rate indicator is included in the G500 and also has the 6 second where you will be.... which I have found very useful in executing complex turn, hold and anticipating intercepts etc. I especially like the Safe-Taxi as it seem I am always at some airport which I am unfamiliar! Not so much on the Flight Charts.... I prefer my Voyager software and even the FlyQ better and much less expensive, but it comes in the Pilot Pak so I download them but have never used them. As for the SVT I am not as impressed with that as I thought I would be, however I have only had the system a little over a month. I do like the graphic display of the approaching runway and take off runway especially for night flights! The feature I use the and enjoy the convenience of most is the Altitude Pre-select and Vertical Speed Pre-select! The traffic notice has been remarkably useful however I believe it may only indicate other ADS-B aircraft but when it indicates other traffic it is right were it says it is and twice now it has been extremely useful! Disappointing that Garmin has not yet come through with integrating the ADS-B from my GTN 750 displaying weather onto the G500... They say soon as they have been saying soon for some time now! Fly safe, Rocket On! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 If you presently have a KFC 150 (or KAP 150) with the HSI it makes no sense whatsoever to give this up for some glass. Some try to make the ridiculous argument that you can have a vacuum failure. Yes you can have a vacuum failure. But remember you can be proactive and spend ~ $300 every 500 hours and replace your vacuum pump, and ~$2000 every 1000 hours to overhaul the AI AND HSI. I'm assuming that you do have the CV1J4 Clear view inline filter installed to protect the instruments from carbon dust. This is standard equipment on all Mooneys since 1994. Doing the math you will budget $2500 every 10 years which is ~$250 a year!!! I personally like the appearance of the AI and HSI in my KFC 150. They are serious precision instruments which look like they belong in my Mooney if you know what I mean. They complement the machine. Incidentally a vacuum failure is only an issue in hardcore IFR. In anything less than that it's a non issue. The HSI is electric. Also if you really want to be proactive and you fly hard IFR all the time, in addition to what I mentioned, you can install an electric BU AI for a few hundred bucks. Just my opinion. This is a vacuum system , That means the air is moved from the instrument to the vacuum pump.... You cant get carbon in the instrument , Only on some systems with boots do the steam gages run from pressurized air from the vacuum pump... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1026F Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 I did the G500 mod in 2010. I have a 2004 Ovation2 (still being fixed--see: "expensive brain fart" thread). Anyways, I have the 530 and 430 in WAAS, the back-up "steam gauges" AI, IAS, and alt ind. mounted directly in primary sight (there's a Garmin YouTube video that demos the system in a Bravo--same configuration). The big advantage in this system is the AHRS box--remove the vacuum system--everything then becomes solid-state. The Bendix-King HSI is a great tool but when it need fixin' it gets pricey; I like making changes that increase reliability. (I don't like doing the math especially in a changing market: that requires economics/depreciation/calculus...). AHRS is hardwired to the main bus and can also reset in flight. Garmin has a training simulator for the G500/600 on its site. I trained for IFR with an excellent instructor and former MAC test pilot, Dylan Foley. During training we emphasized the "button-ology" of knowing how to immediately call up and set all variations of flight plans (even DME arcs), functions between the 530/430: GPS 1 and 2, VOR 1 and 2, ILS 1 and 2, etc. The training also involved "turning the glass off" and flying with only the back-up gauges. Dylan is a close friend of mine now and owner of KALI Aviation (Alice, Texas) I get recurrent training as often as I need. I believe all pilots are professionals--it's a mind set. But the most important thing I've learned from those that actually pay the bills by flying, is that they get recurrent training constantly. This applies to glass or steam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Carter Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Just curious, what is the cost of a conversion such as a G500 now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 It starts about 23000..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 It starts about 23000..... And another $5k for a GAD-43e if you need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlunseth Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 The disappointing thing about any glass technology for me is obsolescence, and it is different than it is for steam gauges. The problem with computer technology is that processing power (bandwidth) increases exponentially, and because it does, the software, firmware and data that drives the device become larger and more complex, and as that happens, the ability of older hardware to run that software and firmware is impaired. Concrete examples in aviation are the Garmin MX 20 and the iPad. The MX 20 in my plane still does a serviceable job of displaying data, but the display is noticeably slow and every once in awhile it needs to do a reboot because it becomes overwhelmed with the amount of data it is being asked to process. I have an iPad 1 that I have kept as a backup, but it will not run OS 6 and is noticeably slow running the recent generations of Foreflight. The solution is to buy the newest generation of technology (I use an iPad 4, for example), and when the prices are in the range of a few hundred or a couple of thousand dollars that is costly and aggravating, but not impossible. When the prices are in the range of several tens of thousands of dollars, "disposable technology" is much less attractive. A whole generation of very expensive glass panels were installed some years ago, and then WAAS upgrades cost over $10,000 when WAAS became a reality. Steam gauges, on the other hand, just work. They may need repair or overhaul every decade or so, but they work as reliably and fast 40 years after installation as they did when the plane came out of the factory. Glass panels are still in the development stages. By that I don't mean that the panels that are put in aircraft are unfinished products, they obviously must be "fly ready" or they don't get certified. But functionality is rapidly changing, so we went from buttons, to touch screen and "banding," and in the next five years or so to NextGen, connectivity on the panel, and other things that have not even been thought of. To my mind, the better strategy is to give technology a few years to mature, unless you hit the Powerball and can afford to replace your avionics every five years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Carter Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 It's all chump change. What's a few thousand here or there. Seriously though, this is not a decision to make lightly. I think Ray is right, if you upgrade, you probably won't ever see recoupment. You will have a nice, pretty panel to look at though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 And another $5k for a GAD-43e if you need it. Heres the good news , The G600 comes with a GAD 43 and it is not required for a lot of installs , These are hitting the market for about 1000 dollars ... Money saved.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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