Upgrade panel for IFR with steam guages what equipment needed

[rbridges]

I'm trying to remember how my training went.  Personally, I would spring for a certified GPS.  It can substitute for a DME for approaches.  It also adds a second nav/comm (in most cases) which is nice to have in general.  My plane had a DME, and I only used it a time or two during training since the 430 was also in the panel.

If no about the GPS, I'd probably get a 2nd comm and DME.  A second VOR would be nice, but I rarely use my first VOR at this point.

 

[Chris from PA]

Your money would be better spent on a modern GPS unit. The situational awareness that's added by being able to see the airport, airspace, approach course, geographic landmarks, etc is immeasurable. When you're hand flying in the soup you want all the advantages you can get.  If you want to fly approaches using steam gauges (an admirable goal and one that will hone your instrument skills)  get a flight simulator for your computer.

[MitchS]

I hate to jump in on the same things that everyone else is staying, but I too would go a different route here.  I just finished my IFR training in November, before I did the big panel upgrade to the Mooney and the GPS stuff is invaluable.  Additionally VOR's, NDB, and other equipment is being phased out by the FAA.  (http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/November/24/FAA-begins-decommissioning-VORs as just one example of detail.)

I did a big panel upgrade in November/December and I have to stay that ADS-B and GPS stuff is where the best long-term investment is for an aircraft.  At least in my opinion.  My 1968C is now just a dream to fly, and the GPS/NavCom combinations make for efficient work in the cockpit.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Philly Chris.

Are you familiar with the NJ Mooney Pilots?

We're in your neighborhood I believe...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Marauder-

I agree that it's wise to not throw any new money into the ADF, but if it's there, and it works, why not put it to use?  You don't have to shoot approaches with it to gain usefullness.

The problem with GPS is the expense.  They are expensive to purchase (new), expensive to install and expensive to maintain (subscription).  Furthermore, their lifespan may be shorter than what we are used to.  Even now, parts are unavailable for some of the first and second generation systems, screens and circuit boards usually.  Subscription services have been discontinued  for many, making otherwise good navigation systems unusable for approaches and limiting their usefulness.  One may be forced back to the ADF for lack of subscription data!.  Not legal to shoot approaches with expired data, right?

GPS is an awesome tool but not without it's problems.  

 

If it is in the plane, I may be tempted to continue to use it -- IF the places I go still have one in service. Near me, there is only one airport that has an NDB. But as someone who flew IFR 20+ years behind the finest Steam o Matics, I would not go back to strictly steam again. Heck, since 1992 when I bought my first Garmin GPS (anyone remember the 55 and the 95XL?), I would say I got better utility out of the portable VFR only GPS than my ADF. The newer technology really puts together the complete picture. In addition, if you buy the correct stuff, the workload goes down. If you asked me 3 years ago when I was just learning the new stuff if this was true, I would have said "no" since I was flying from the back seat for the first 10 hours.

The cost of entry is steep. But what in aviation isn't?

We had a long and lengthy discussion about the original certified GPS's serviceability. I would agree some of the earliest units may have support issues. But I haven't heard of issues with support of the Garmin GNS series. There is a large installed based and I suspect obsolescence will be driven more by desire to upgrade than lack of support.

As for subscriptions, the requirement is, if I am not mistaken, that the Nav information needs to be verified by another source if you do not maintain the currency by database refreshes through a subscription. BTW -- even if you have a current database in the unit, it is still possible the information is not current because of an off cycle change. Each of the subscription sites have a location where you can augment or verify currency.

How someone equips a plane is personal involving their specific requirements and the budget they have. Therefore, the advice from us knuckleheads should be taken with that in consideration. Why would you take the word of someone who spent more money on avionics than the cost of the plane?!

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[Oldguy]

It may not be really sexy, but the first thing I would do if starting my IFR training is make sure my plane has a current pitot static/transponder certification before I bought any avionics if budget is a concern. (on the way to a transponder check in my C172, ATC had me showing I was at 29,000' - spent a couple of $$ getting that repaired) Vacuum pump running with 500+ hours on it? Another check to be written before I would train or fly IFR.

Like many have said above, your plane is equipped to fly IFR with what you have although your choices may be limited by available approaches. Make sure where you will be flying has approaches available to your instrumentation and learn everything currently in your panel. A good G430W adds a Nav/COM/GPS which, if obsoleted in the near future, can currently be replaced with a brand new Avidyne IFD 440. Probably have a longer life than the 430. But if you are dead set against putting in a GPS at this time, you probably have what you need to get the rating.

So get out there and fly! And have fun.

John

[glafaille]

I don't believe that you can legally shoot a GPS approach unless the database is current.  Enroute IFR is allowed with an expired database as long as the waypoints are individually verified.

I don't like that we are held hostage by the database providers who seem to have a monopoly on both the use of GPS navigation systems and their lifespan.  If a database  provider decides to no longer support a particular GPS, the usefulness and value of the unit are diminished.  The data needs to be standardized between vendors so others can provide support when Jeppessen, Garmin or King do not.

Where are the NEW inexpensive IFR GPS navigation systems?  The ones that are NOT the "All in one" type that cost $10,000 plus install.  

Do they exist or is the only BUDGET choice a used system on the verge of obsolescence? 

 

[PilotPierce]

23 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

 

[PilotPierce]

Looks like the verdict is in, i sorta knew it'd come to this. Waas gps it is now the only question is what setup to go with, gtn 650 I guess. Do I need a CDI or HSI? Should i spring for EFIS? I can't see putting a 430 in it, unless I can get a slide in upgrade later. Any thoughts?  

Thanks for everyones two cents!

[1964-M20E]

To train you have everything you need.  Will it be more difficult without a GPS or second NAV/COM yes it will.  Will you be a better IR pilot I think so IMHO.

Would I fly in hard IMC with just one Nav/com most likely not.  However, to get above a cloud layer with pretty much VFR on top and under it on the other end a single NAV/COM would work.

On the other hand I will have for sale a functioning King KLN94 IFR rated GPS with color screen and 2 data cards and card reader available next week which has been removed from my stack along with a KY97A com.  Transponder is already spoken for.

 

If you want to go new go Avidyne IFD440 or 540.  I'm having the 540 installed.

I think they have some deal for a free XNDER ADSB capable.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by 1964-M20E

[carusoam]

At least get two quotes.

Garmin, Avidyne and if you like living on the edge go, BK.

I don't think a Mooney pilot has bought a KSN770 yet...

the lowest cost WAAS GPS is probably a used G430W.  Does the same approaches tha a GTN does, but not as modern or fancy.

trying to balance installing a free handicapped GPS with full GTN.  That's a wide range.  If you have the dough go GTN.  if you don't, go 430W...

The Avidyne is modern, fancy and comes with a warranty for less than the GTN...  There is a guy here from Avdyne if you want to ask him questions.  Avibennet(?) or something like that.  Use the search feature. He is easy to find and his job is really knowing these things well.

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

I would do GTN650 and a if going HSI, I would just go with Aspen PFD. Or find used CDI for cheap for now.

[Marauder]

Looks like the verdict is in, i sorta knew it'd come to this. Waas gps it is now the only question is what setup to go with, gtn 650 I guess. Do I need a CDI or HSI? Should i spring for EFIS? I can't see putting a 430 in it, unless I can get a slide in upgrade later. Any thoughts?  

Thanks for everyones two cents!

Read post #9

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[glafaille]

I am more of a minimalist than most on this board.  I take the Bill Lear, designer of the Lear Jet, philosophy.  To paraphrase; Anything you don't install, is one less thing you have to maintain.  In other words, be very careful the equipment you install is absolutely necessary for the mission, because the cost to maintain that equipment, will add to the cost to maintain the aircraft.

An Ipad and a Stratus can go a long way to assist in point to point enroute navigation.  All of us can request and usually receive a heading to an enroute VOR or airport without GPS.  Where a GPS shines is for approaches at airports not served by an ILS.  One must consider how much he is willing to pay for this capability and how often the capability will be required.

 

[capthaak]

Kns80 sounds promising 

I have one just removed I'd practically give away you'll need a CDI though.

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[glafaille]

Capt:

 

Is that a Loran? 

[capthaak]

Capt:

 

Is that a Loran? 

Yes, and it's for sale too!

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