Engine failure of sorts in my Bravo--need advice on what to do

[carl]

On 1/19/2016 at 3:37 AM, Bravoman said:

I'll try to post a pic later if I can figure out how to do it.

His original post mentioned the pic . Besides I bet it looks just like this!!

[Tony Armour]

Posting for Bravoman.

[Tony Armour]

Not sure of exact location in the block but at a glance I'm saying a lifter "come from together"

[jetdriven]

Wow !  It looks like a lifter siezed in the bore then the cam split the case.  But how is the heck can that happen?

[M20F]

Just now, jetdriven said:

Wow !  It looks like a lifter siezed in the bore then the cam split the case.  But how is the heck can that happen?

Should be able to check by turning the prop through.  

Not an expert but would be really surprised if DivCo couldn't weld that.  Either way an overhaul includes replacing all the cylinders and a lot of other stuff that probably is in good condition given the airplanes age/hours, if they aren't bad why do that.  I would call DivCo and send them pictures for their input.  I find it really strange that Zephyr would suggest going with a factory reman, you could find a used/new case and do the bottom for a lot less.  There is no circumstances personally where I see Lycoming factory as being either a better and certainly not a cheaper option.

[Guest]

That's an unbelievable crack.

Clarence

[jclemens]

That damage is not typical, I will pass this along to my contacts and see if I can get an opinion on repairability of that case.  I'll also see about price and availability of an outright case.  

[N601RX]

I wander if something else broke 1st and then a piece of the broken part got on top of the cam and pushed its way out into the block when cam lob rolled over.  I would asked the shop to remove the one cylinder and see what else is messed up inside. 

The attached picture was recently posted by another member of his 4 cylinder, but you can see how close the cam lobe is to the inside of the case.  If there was a nut or any foreign metal part caught on top of the cam it would be pushed up through the case cracking and budging it upward.

Perhaps it was lifted by the engine loop instead of tying the tail down? Kidding of course.

[carl]

Marauder 's friends were sitting on it for a photo op. 

 

I would change my suggestion from weld repair to new case. 

[Bravoman]

Crazy thing is the engine sounded normal and appeared to be making normal power through the time I shut it down. I am no mechanic but I would have thought I would hear or feel something abnormal given the probable failure of a lifter etc. the scariest thing about this is the complete lack of any warning of the failure. On the plus side it is way better than the mill stopping on takeoff.

Tony, thanks for posting the pic!

 

[M20F]

35 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

Crazy thing is the engine sounded normal and appeared to be making normal power through the time I shut it down. I am no mechanic but I would have thought I would hear or feel something abnormal given the probable failure of a lifter etc. the scariest thing about this is the complete lack of any warning of the failure. On the plus side it is way better than the mill stopping on takeoff.

Tony, thanks for posting the pic!

 

Has anyone done compression test, pulled prop through, or anything since the incident?

[StevenL757]

On January 19, 2016 at 1:33 PM, mike_elliott said:

Do call Lycoming, they may provide some relief on a reman. Rocketman got a deal he couldn't refuse on his Bravo engine from them, you may also. If they balk, call Roger Gradle at Continental Motors in Fairhope. They rebuild lycomings also. Of course, Charlie Melot at Zepher will do a bang up first class job, as will Poplar Grove, and Penn Yan.
I am steering you to an OH instead of just a fix whats busted. You are going to be into it for almost the same labor $.

I worked with Roger on my IO550N, and would go back to them in a hot minute.  Excellent suggestion for his TIO540 Lycoming.

[Bravoman]

47 minutes ago, M20F said:

Has anyone done compression test, pulled prop through, or anything since the incident?

No, what would that reveal?

[Shadrach]

Bravoman,

That is one funky case crack! I went through the same thing in 2010 albeit with a 4cyl. It had 880SMOH at the time. I elected to IRAN. Most of my engine internals looked perfect. We had all the cyl IRAN'd, the case was OH'd by crankcase services in Tulsa  ($800). Total bill was $4500, but I R&R'd the engine under supervision. If the case is repairable, you could likely be back in the air for around 10K with a firm understanding of the condition of your engine. Lots of people will tell you that you need a new engine. I think that's a rediculous idea. Don't get lulled into to believing that spending money = safety. Spending money wisely = safety...and value.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Shadrach

[MB65E]

I have only known of one broken Lycoming camshaft, but it sound like the airplane was making power. I bet the cam is intact. The clearances are tight its in a strange spot for anything to get whipped up there.

I'm leaning more towards 601's comment.   I would be more interested in the jacking procedures  that were used for the last 20 years. Bravos have the foward jack point. I have been scared of the D ring and try not to use it unless it's just the engine weight.

Please let us know!  

I'd call around to engine shops, ask for a serviceable case(possibly new) and go thru the engine. I would try to keep all the steel parts you could. Keep your cylinders and have them overhauled. (Well.. they are parallel valve so it's not so bad for replacements. But having overhauled ones, there is no way to verify how many heat cycles or hours are on the core)

It's nice to say it's a fresh overhaul but...if you plan on keeping it,  I'd do an IRAN.  You could probably get at least another 1000 hrs for only the parts you put into it. 

Nice airmenship by the way,

-Matt 

[jclemens]

That ring is there for the sole purpose of lifting the engine, the damage is not from that.  The crank and the cam are not broken, damage would have been way more catastrophic.  My educated guess without taking it apart is that a cam follower suffered from oil starvation and seized in the lifter bore.  Once the lifter bore cracked it would no longer be seized.  The engine would run fine, other than hemorrhaging oil from the cracked case.  I am on my way into my office, I will post some options later today.

[Tony Armour]

Related to what I said before about the lifter/follower. My IA (that happens to be at Gann Aviation) looked at the picture and said the valve could have seized.

My thinking on that, then if the pushrod didn't bend first the lifter had to go somewhere. It would be real interesting to have Cole pull the valve cover and check the valve. The crack is over the exhaust lifter/pushrod. In fact, I personally would want to be there when this check was done if it were mine. (I can go for you if needed) This check wouldn't effect any return to Lycoming either.

 SB388b/c, the Lycoming valve wobble test. To determine exhaust valve and guide condition. Should be done every 400 hours. Mine is in annual now and we looked at one cylinder even though mine is exempt due to the different valve guides used when we did the cylinder rebuilds. I even have a print out from 2005 by Joe Frisolone at East Coast aviation (print out was in July 1999 MAPA log), he says that he will not even fly in a TLS/bravo that has not been compliant with a 400 hour interval.

The SB: http://www.caa.si/fileadmin/user_upload/pageuploads/AD-NOTE/AD-2006/093_sb_SB388C.pdf

A good read here too: http://www.tennesseeaircraft.net/422/

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Tony Armour

[M20F]

12 hours ago, Bravoman said:

No, what would that reveal?

Difficult to answer your question "what to do about the engine" when other than a visible crack there isn't anything else known.  Cole should be able to look it over and get some idea of what went wrong, what is good, what is definitely bad, and what is potentially bad with the motor.  There are a dozen different theories presented here and you have advice running from essentially buy a factory new engine to put chewing gum on the crack.  I don't know how you follow any of them or anyone can give advice when there aren't a lot of facts other than it cracked.

[Tony Armour]

The other side is busted too. I think "cracked" is the wrong use of the word in this case. (Pun not intended !)

Also tons of metal in the screen. Aluminum and steel. Broke my heart just seeing it !

[Shadrach]

Seems to me a seized valve would likely bend a pushrod before doing that to the case. I look forward to learning what's inside the case. Metal in the screen is not necessarily a complete right off, but it certainly isn't good news.

I doubt Lycoming will take this engine back in trade.

[larryb]

Just curious, what kind of oil and change interval do you use?

[mike_elliott]

18 hours ago, Bravoman said:

On the plus side it is way better than the mill stopping on takeoff.

You betcha!

[KSMooniac]

Inspect &

Repar

As

Necessary

 

Basically on-condition maintenance vs. giving a shop carte blanche to overhaul or replace anything.

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, IrishTiger said:

 

The only engine I've ever blown is a GE CF34-3B1 turbofan at 400ft off the ground at O'Hare on departure. Before T/O, all engine pressures, temps, EVERYTHING was in the green. The oil temp and PSI were in the green and every system that I looked at was normal, and well within limits on the EICAS synoptic pages. I make it a habit of scanning through those before I takeoff. Nothing made me think I had a problem. Somehow though, maintenance had just put this brand new engine on, and this was it's very first flight, and they managed to SOMEHOW mix the oil and hydraulic lines. It was a catastrophic failure beyond any imagination. 

So what can go wrong, will go wrong. But as well trained pilots, we tend to snap into emergency mode. I immediately began barking out commands, and wrestled the jet under control, brought her back safely for a landing on 28. We do the same in our Mooney's (or at least I hope we do!!). I lost power in my Bravo while coming in to land in New Orleans Lakefront, and even though it was a stupid, stupid mistake (the one time I didn't actually look into my gas tank - so you can figure out what happened there, lol) but I snapped into emergency mode and in about 4 seconds had the engine running again on the other tank. 

It's always helpful to review memory items, emergency procedures, and I've even gone so far as to MAKE a QRH for our airplane, and I designed a personal checklist for my Bravo. 

You obviously did the same thing, and got it back safe and sound, and fortunately at our mechanics field!! So good job for that! 

Oh this broke my heart too... and it also scares me! I want to take good care of my engine, and I sure as heck don't like seeing holes blown through the top of them!!!! 

Many of the pilot's I know in person and on-line would not have the confidence to admit to a fuel starvation incident such as yours.  I appreciate your candor and I'm so glad that you aren't Cirrus owner with an itchy trigger finger! 

[mike_elliott]

32 minutes ago, IrishTiger said:

Oh - and while we're talking about it, I'm unfamiliar with what IRAN means. Also, I've been keeping an overhaul and serious engine work in the back of my head, and I've never heard of Zephyr or these other places that have been spoken of.

Can someone make a short list of these shops and what state they are located in? I'd sure appreciate it!  

Zepher - Zepher Hills, Fl.

Penn Yann - Penn Yan, NY

Continental Motors - Fairhope, Al.

Carlus Gann - Lafayette, Ga.

Lycoming - Williamsport, Pa.

IRAN - Inspect and repair as necessary