Take off while at gross in a M20F

[Rookie]

Is there anyone that has taken off at gross weight in M20F?

[PMcClure]

yes. 

[carusoam]

Anyone with a family traveling long distances probably qualifies...

Is there a follow-up to this question?

The C through TN have POHs with reliable information in them.

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Is there anyone that has taken off at gross weight in M20F?

A few hundred times. Something you are interested in specifically?

[Rookie]

Does it climb well enough in high density altitude conditions?

My concern is after flying a few hours, land and get fuel and the conditions have changed then the plane will have trouble

climbing under higher density conditions!?

[Urs_Wildermuth]

Don't know about the F but I've repeatedly taken off in my "C" from a 5600 ft AMSL airport with over 7000 ft DA. If there is enough runway lenght and obstacle clearance it is no problem whatsoever. What you should be doing at that high DA's is lean the engine to get maximum take off power.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Rookie said:

Does it climb well enough in high density altitude conditions?

My concern is after flying a few hours, land and get fuel and the conditions have changed then the plane will have trouble

climbing under higher density conditions!?

I have found that the take-off and climb numbers in the POH are pretty close. I have had my plane at gross several times, but it's rare. I don't typically subject pax to more than about 3hr legs. It's a rare occasion that I have over 750lbs in the cabin, but it does happen. Use the POH numbers and add some percentage of margin. Plan your departures for early morning. Do lean for take off and climb; note SL WOTFR take off  EGT and use that (typically 1150-1250). The F performs well on 200hp, but it's still only 200hp. What do you consider high DA?  I'm based at 703' and in August we see DAs in the 4K range.

[Rookie]

42 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I have found that the take-off and climb numbers in the POH are pretty close. I have had my plane at gross several times, but it's rare. I don't typically subject pax to more than about 3hr legs. It's a rare occasion that I have over 750lbs in the cabin, but it does happen. Use the POH numbers and add some percentage of margin. Plan your departures for early morning. Do lean for take off and climb; note SL WOTFR take off  EGT and use that (typically 1150-1250). The F performs well on 200hp, but it's still only 200hp. What do you consider high DA?  I'm based at 703' and in August we see DAs in the 4K range.

Does it climb well enough in high density altitude conditions?

My concern is after flying a few hours, land and get fuel and the conditions have changed then the plane will have trouble

climbing under higher density conditions!?

[Rookie]

My bad! In south Louisiana and the south I do see it in the 2500DA at times but that's as high as I've seen it.

[Shadrach]

36 minutes ago, Rookie said:

My bad! In south Louisiana and the south I do see it in the 2500DA at times but that's as high as I've seen it.

That is not a high DA. >5000 is what I consider a high DA. I lean for anything over 3000 if the runway is on the shorter side. I don't know the condition of your plane, in my plane I would expect >500fpm through DAs of about 9000' and that's on the conservative side. 

If it makes you feel better, I've had my F in and out of 1800' of grass with the DA ~3500' at 2400lbs. 

You should do fine. Don't try and climb out at asteep angle. Let the plane accelerate and shoot for 120MIAS, that will yield a nice ROC with good cooling and forward movement. Steep angles are fine when light and solo, but gentle, smooth and shallow is what you want with a full ship.

[N201MKTurbo]

I've taken off from Tellutide at 2700 Lbs. 

just be patient, it will get off the ground eventually.

[Rookie]

Just now, Shadrach said:

That is not a high DA. >5000 is what I consider a high DA. I lean for anything over 3000 if the runway is on the shorter side. I don't know the condition of your plane, in my plane I would expect >500fpm through DAs of about 9000' and that's on the conservative side. 

If it makes you feel better, I've had my F in and out of 1800' of grass with the DA ~3500' at 2400lbs. 

You should do fine. Don't try and climb out at asteep angle. Let the plane accelerate and shoot for 120MIAS, that will yield a nice ROC with good cooling and forward movement. Steep angles are fine when light and solo, but gentle, smooth and shallow is what you want with a full ship.

Ready to buy with all this good advise guys, Thanks!

[M20F]

It certainly climbs slower, flies slower, etc. when heavy but not noticeably a lot worse.  You will certainly notice the change in stall speed and generally if you are at max weight you are at aft CG limits as well so you have to as Ross points out be a lot smoother and more shallow in the controls, particularly when landing.

[Marauder]

As Ross points out, you need to be seeing some high DAs before there is a noticeable difference.

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[Shadrach]

The point made above about stall speed is a good one. The F model is versatile machine. It can be flown light, under 2000lbs or at 2740lb gross. Stall speed changes by nearly 10mph form one extreme to the other.

[M20F]

Just now, Shadrach said:

The point made above about stall speed is a good one. The F model is versatile machine. Sometimes I'm under 2000lbs when I take off, other times I'm close to or right at the 2740lb gross. Stall speed changes by nearly 10mph form one extrem to the other.

I would also add that stalling with maximum aft CG and maximum weight is going to be a whole different kind of ride than being light and doing some stalls with just you and an instructor sitting up front with half tanks.  I encourage everyone to practice a bit with CFI or somebody who knows that they are doing across the entire flight envelope.  Mooney's aren't the best slow flight planes in the world to begin with but when they are slow and heavy they are really piggy.

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, M20F said:

I would also add that stalling with maximum aft CG and maximum weight is going to be a whole different kind of ride than being light and doing some stalls with just you and an instructor sitting up front with half tanks.  I encourage everyone to practice a bit with CFI or somebody who knows that they are doing across the entire flight envelope.  Mooney's aren't the best slow flight planes in the world to begin with but when they are slow and heavy they are really piggy.

That's a good idea. But I take issue with the "piggy" part. At a MAPA PPP, I impressed my instructor with how long I could fly, while turning in both directions, with the stall horn squalling. We must have gone over 5 minutes while he waited for something to go wrong [didn't happen]. She flew nice. I just don't like the control feel when that slow. All changes must be gentle . . .

My preferred slow flight regime, when giving rides at airport day in a conga line of Skyhawks, is 2300 and whatever MP it takes to go that slow, something like 15-16".

[M20F]

Just now, Hank said:

That's a good idea. But I take issue with the "piggy" part. At a MAPA PPP, I impressed my instructor with how long I could fly, while turning in both directions, with the stall horn squalling. We must have gone over 5 minutes while he waited for something to go wrong [didn't happen]. She flew nice. I just don't like the control feel when that slow. All changes must be gentle . . .

My preferred slow flight regime, when giving rides at airport day in a conga line of Skyhawks, is 2300 and whatever MP it takes to go that slow, something like 15-16".

I agree hence the word piggy.  The laminar flow wing is great for Mooney's but it certainly doesn't fly slow like a big fat winged Bonanza.

[garytex]

Compared to my old Cessna 170, and to a lesser extent the Grumman Chetah, my F is zippy in takeoff at 7 to 8 thousand foot DAs. On the 170 the fixed pitch prop would only turn 2300 static, I think it was producing 87 hp and would spin up to 2400, then maybe 2500 for the rest of the takeoff roll. At 5000 feet and 95 degrees in Albequerque and 2200 lbs. I barely cleared 20 foot trees off the end of a 5000 foot runway.  I've been there since in the M20F at 2700 lbs, similar conditions, off the ground and climbing in about 2000 feet.

Comparitivly I'm only lifting 500 more pounds with the full power of the engine, 200 hp via the constant speed prop, and less drag from the airframe. It's wonderful.

 

[carusoam]

Urs,

That is the Swiss flag on your tail, right?

I know (I think) we have a French Mooney here that posted video or photos of landing in the Alps.

Rookie,

The M20C is a pretty capable machine.  The F adds 10% more HP.  

To put that in context, 10% more HP is nice but the ability to climb is the part of the HP range called excess HP. Planes climb because they have excess HP.  20 more excess HP is spectacular.

If you really want to do some math, calculate the Weight to Horsepower ratio of your favorite Mooney, loaded the way you would load it then compare that to your favorite sports car in your driveway.  Unfortunately, the Corvette only has two seats...

I think you will like the results.

Then do the same math using the Missile's engine.  Same body length as the F, with 50% more HP....

If you like that math, there is always the 310HP engines with a pair of TNs on them....

Sense the addiction?

Best regards,

-a-

[WardHolbrook]

Did I hear the words "ready to buy"? I know the insurance company will probably require a few hours with a CFI. Find one that really knows Mooneys (Probably not your local Cessna or Piper CFI) and make sure he spends some time with you at max gross takeoff weight and also with fwd and aft CG loadings. (You'll likely need to use some ballast weight in the baggage compartment to get there with just the two of you on board.) You can do a pretty good simulation of high DA takeoffs and climbs with reduced power takeoffs and climbs. The Mooney is a GREAT airplane, it just likes to be flown a bit faster than say a Cherokee or 172. However, when it comes time to land, the biggest mistake guys seem to make is coming in too fast. Enjoy your new Mooney!   

[Lood]

Yes, lots of times and at DA's of up to about 8000ft. You should still see a ROC of up to 400f/min, but this can be as low as 200ft/min when it's really hot.
I'm far more wary about the actual take off run than I am about the climb performance. I once took off at MAUW from a grass strip, with a 7500ft DA. I used 2400ft of the available 3000ft, but once cleaned up, we climbed away at just below 300ft/min.

At sea level, you should see close to 500ft/min at MAUW.

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, Lood said:

Yes, lots of times and at DA's of up to about 8000ft. You should still see a ROC of up to 400f/min, but this can be as low as 200ft/min when it's really hot.
I'm far more wary about the actual take off run than I am about the climb performance. I once took off at MAUW from a grass strip, with a 7500ft DA. I used 2400ft of the available 3000ft, but once cleaned up, we climbed away at just below 300ft/min.

At sea level, you should see close to 500ft/min at MAUW.

Lood, I don't know what's up with your bird. If my plane only delivered 500fpm at MGW from SL, I would land and ground the aircraft until the problem had been diagnosed and resolved.  ~1000fpm at gross on a near standard day is pretty typical through 2000ft. >800 through 5000.  In the cooler months when solo, I see >1400fpm. I have made climbs to 9000' in under 10 mins in the winter. Are you pulling back to to 25"x 2500?

[Marauder]

13 hours ago, Lood said: Yes, lots of times and at DA's of up to about 8000ft. You should still see a ROC of up to 400f/min, but this can be as low as 200ft/min when it's really hot.

I'm far more wary about the actual take off run than I am about the climb performance. I once took off at MAUW from a grass strip, with a 7500ft DA. I used 2400ft of the available 3000ft, but once cleaned up, we climbed away at just below 300ft/min.

At sea level, you should see close to 500ft/min at MAUW.

Lood, I don't know what's up with your bird. If my plane only delivered 500fpm at MGW from SL, I would land and ground the aircraft until the problem had been diagnosed and resolved.  ~1000fpm at gross on a near standard day is pretty typical through 2000ft. >800 through 5000.  In the cooler months when solo, I see >1400fpm. I have made climbs to 9000' in under 10 mins in the winter. Are you pulling back to to 25"x 2500?

He has to be pulling the power back. With air temps in the low 50s last week, I saw 1,200 FPM with full fuel, 420 in the seats and doing Vy+10

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[Hank]

I agree with Ross. Even my little underpowered C gave me 1000-1200 fpm at takeoff from 264 msl. Granted, I was a couple hundred below gross, but I've got 20 less hp and lousy distribution.