Heloman Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 1 hour ago, DXB said: This is interesting. Just curious, if the accelerator pump is not working, does it also hesitate or stumble when opening the throttle? One would expect this I think? I was wondering about that too, but I didn't notice anything last time I flew, it ran great, just wouldn't start the next time out. But I never move the throttle very fast so I'm not sure I'd notice anything anyways. When I started it this morning, I only let it run for about 30 seconds; just long enough to know it was running on it's own fuel, and ignition system is functional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Dev, You have brought an interesting point. A stumble would be expected as soon as the throttle is briskly pushed in for T/O. Most people are too gentle on the throttle to sense the accel pump. Based on the current knowledge, he is taking it to the carb shop. Probably the best course of action. Skip the extra experiments, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 13 hours ago, DXB said: In case some folks want to see the "pulling the prop through for cold starts" topic beaten to death further, there's this thread: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68455 Apparently there are some C172s from the 1970s for which the POH actually recommends pulling the prop through before cold temperature starts. It goes so far as to recommend turning it backwards for added safety related to p lead grounding. Perhaps this is where the practice made its jump from WWII bombers to modern GA practice? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that turning an engine backwards would reverse the direction the air traveling through it, so any air drawn into the cylinders would be throught the exhaust system and blown out through the intake. That does not seem like a useful procedure to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 9 hours ago, Shadrach said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that turning an engine backwards would reverse the direction the air traveling through it, so any air drawn into the cylinders would be throught the exhaust system and blown out through the intake. That does not seem like a useful procedure to me. I wondered the same thing. Must be all about freeing up the cylinders and crank to put less load on the starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 at temperatures over 50F is there really a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 10 hours ago, jetdriven said: at temperatures over 50F is there really a difference? That's why I pull it through two revolutions when temps are near or below freezing. In warm weather, I don't do anything. Last night, I paid close attention. Ran the fuel pump to stabilize pressure at 6 psi, then off; Mixture Rich, pumped throttle twice, fuel pressure now around 5 psi. Turned the key and pushed. With my 3-blade prop, I could see the first two blades rotate by, then a blur and she was running. Temps were mid-50s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 56 replies to priming the "easy starting" carbed birds... Impressive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 2 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said: 56 replies to priming the "easy starting" carbed birds... Impressive. Mine is SUPER easy to start hot or cold once you learn the technique SUPER EASY...second blade every time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 3 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said: 56 replies to priming the "easy starting" carbed birds... Impressive. Many, like yours, are from our injected brethren (telling us how to start their engines). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Makes you wonder. these air-cooled, carburated engines are supposed to be simpler and more reliable than water-cooled, fuel injected engines, but alas, my truck doesn't need to be pushed on cold mornings either My millennial self cannot help but wonder what modern fuel injection, water-cooled, with electronic ignition would do in an airplane. Aren't the new M10s featuring these? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said: Makes you wonder. these air-cooled, carburated engines are supposed to be simpler and more reliable than water-cooled, fuel injected engines, but alas, my truck doesn't need to be pushed on cold mornings either My millennial self cannot help but wonder what modern fuel injection, water-cooled, with electronic ignition would do in an airplane. Aren't the new M10s featuring these? My millennial self cannot help but wonder what modern fuel injection, water-cooled, with electronic ignition would do in an airplane Add weight, I'd love to read the threads on water pump service or my radiator sprung a leak etc. remember these engines are big and designed to make power at lower rpms, if you made a 360 cubic inch water cooled engine it would be quite a bit heavier not to mention all the extra equipment needed to support the cooling system. Also modern engines make max HP at much higher rpm and you would have to add a gear reduction for correct prop speed (more weight) I agree on the electronic ignition and electronic fuel injection idea though. Once I got the bugs fixed on mine (the biggest being pilot operator error) my old school engine starts and runs fine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 5 minutes ago, bonal said: Once I got the bugs fixed on mine (the biggest being pilot operator error) my old school engine starts and runs fine. Yup - you and me both on the operator error part - really no big deal once you get the hang of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 On November 20, 2015 at 3:59:40 PM, Hank said: Many, like yours, are from our injected brethren (telling us how to start their engines). Where? I did not see any advice on starting injected engines or anyone suggesting the procedures are the same. I was just curious about some of the procedures listed. I've started many a carbed engine and some of the stuff I see in print and hear people say borders on witchcraft or superstition. 1) tap left heal 3 times 2) spin on a circle to the left 720 degrees 3) turn the prop counter-clockwise 4) "unwind" the prop clockwise 5) climb on the wing using only left leg and hop to the left seat 6) prime per the POH 7) as every other blade turns past, say "Hasenpfeffer" 8) if plane does not start by 3rd "Hasenpfeffer", start over from step 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 24 minutes ago, Shadrach said: Where? I did not see any advice on starting injected engines or anyone suggesting the procedures are the same. I was just curious about some of the procedures listed. I've started many a carbed engine and some of the stuff I see in print and hear people say borders on witchcraft or superstition. 1) tap left heal 3 times 92) spin on a circle to the left 720 degrees 3) turn the prop counter-clockwise 4) "unwind" the prop clockwise 5) climb on the wing using only left leg and hop to the left seat 6) prime per the POH 7) as every other blade turns past say "Hasenpfeffer" 8) if plane does not start by 3rd "Hasenpfeffer", start over from step 3 No, the IO360 hot start procedure! :-) But there's no primer . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 7 minutes ago, Hank said: No, the IO360 hot start procedure! :-) But there's no primer . . . . Uh no. If you've shut down properly, the hot procedure is to just turn the key. Most starting problems are self induced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 5 hours ago, bonal said: My millennial self cannot help but wonder what modern fuel injection, water-cooled, with electronic ignition would do in an airplane Add weight, I'd love to read the threads on water pump service or my radiator sprung a leak etc. remember these engines are big and designed to make power at lower rpms, if you made a 360 cubic inch water cooled engine it would be quite a bit heavier not to mention all the extra equipment needed to support the cooling system. Also modern engines make max HP at much higher rpm and you would have to add a gear reduction for correct prop speed (more weight) I agree on the electronic ignition and electronic fuel injection idea though. Once I got the bugs fixed on mine (the biggest being pilot operator error) my old school engine starts and runs fine. How often did P-51s, P-40s, P-38s, etc spring leaks or have radiator problems (outside of getting them shot up)? But again, the M10 is a watercooled, digital-ignition diesel, is it not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 10 hours ago, Raptor05121 said: How often did P-51s, P-40s, P-38s, etc spring leaks or have radiator problems (outside of getting them shot up)? But again, the M10 is a watercooled, digital-ignition diesel, is it not? Don't forget the Spitfire Huricane Lancaster and Mosquito. Remember those were getting constant service and if the radiator took a round end of flight where as lots of examples of radials coming home with whole cylinders shot off. An air cooled engine is a more simple design. Our engines make power with large displacement. The new diesels should be the future but I'm sure even more expensive than our current engines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 7 hours ago, Raptor05121 said: How often did P-51s, P-40s, P-38s, etc spring leaks or have radiator problems (outside of getting them shot up)? But again, the M10 is a watercooled, digital-ignition diesel, is it not? What do you think the TBO on a Merlin V12 is? Wartime TBO was reported to be anywhere from 400-600hrs. In civilian use where the engine is babied relatively speaking they are reported to go 800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 10 hours ago, bonal said: An air cooled engine is a more simple design. Our engines make power with large displacement. The new diesels should be the future but I'm sure even more expensive than our current engines. But what I'm getting at is for such a "simple" design, they operate like a woman PMS'ing. You get 20 identical engines, and 20 owners will tell you 20 different ways to start it. I'm sure the new engines are expensive, but imagine- one power lever, electronically running at the most efficient setting 100% of the time (Mooney had the idea with the M20L, I personally think the most ingenious Mooney ever made). It's simple turn-key operation. No more swinging blades by hand, no more "cmon baby cmon baby" as you pump throttle/mixture, no more burning off fouled plugs, etc. In car terms, we have a 1960s Ford Mustang with all digital readout and satellite radio, GPS, etc but an engine we still have to shoot starting fluid into every once in a while to go for a cruise. It's time we swap it out for a new fuel-injected Coyote 5.0L with electronic ignition. But alas, the FAA is making sure this stays a dream.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Cranked my C again around noon Eastern, cool enough I wore a jacket. Ran fuel pump to stabilize pressure, then Off. Mixture Rich, pump throttle twice. Put on headset, turned key and pushed. Watched my 3-blade prop--one blade, two blades, blur, running. It's not rocket science, it's an O360. When it's cold, I preheat, pull the blade through two rotations and follow the above procedure, but with more throttle pumps (4 or so at freezing, 5 or 6 when it's in the low 20s), and I wait ~30 seconds for the extra fuel to vaporize by winding and setting the clock. Usually get to watch a couple more blades go by, sometimes a cough, then she's running. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 This is how I start my 65C. Mixture rich, prop full forward, beacon on, all else off, master on, boost pump on till full pressure, boost pump off, pump throttle twice and set to quarter inch, start. It fires up pretty fast this way. Ymmv. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Found the Mooney to be very cold blooded when the temps came down. Didn't see this thread before I bought a heater. Not what I'd call expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctsurf Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I think some of these different starting techniques come from the vastly different states our planes are in. Above 50 degrees, I really don't need to do anything for pumping or turning to start, but I have a freshly overhauled carburetor... I have a Cherokee that is incredibly cold blooded and needs numerous pumps on the accelerator pump to start it...but that comes from a carburetor that is in need of a rebuild. On the other hand, I also think we are just perpetuating old wives tales in a number of these starting techniques... My instructor taught me.... My mechanic said... For example, does Lycoming or Continental advocate pulling the engine through a number of blades before starting? To me it seems to be unnecessary, unlubricated wear...it's not going to get the oil moving (it doesn't turn the pump enough), especially not enough to get oil on the poor cam. We talk about safety, safety, safety in flying, but if your engine requires more than the book procedure to start it, there is something not right (or we have believed a wives' tale). It might be time to look at it with your mechanic and fix it. In comparison to car engines...I strongly disagree with the person who said that a liquid cooled engine was heavier... What car engine is running approximately 2ci per hp? You don't need a 360 ci engine to produce 180hp if you can have all of the efficiency of liquid cooling (http://www.liquidcooledairpower.com/about.shtml). But as was said above, the FAA stands in our way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 On 11/21/2015, 8:03:17, Raptor05121 said: But what I'm getting at is for such a "simple" design, they operate like a woman PMS'ing. You get 20 identical engines, and 20 owners will tell you 20 different ways to start it. I'm sure the new engines are expensive, but imagine- one power lever, electronically running at the most efficient setting 100% of the time (Mooney had the idea with the M20L, I personally think the most ingenious Mooney ever made). It's simple turn-key operation. No more swinging blades by hand, no more "cmon baby cmon baby" as you pump throttle/mixture, no more burning off fouled plugs, etc. In car terms, we have a 1960s Ford Mustang with all digital readout and satellite radio, GPS, etc but an engine we still have to shoot starting fluid into every once in a while to go for a cruise. It's time we swap it out for a new fuel-injected Coyote 5.0L with electronic ignition. But alas, the FAA is making sure this stays a dream.... The "PMS'ing" is the ownership, not the airplanes. They all do the same thing the same way. The fact that people use any number of useless rituals, elixirs, snake oils and superstitions to get them to start is a testament to their simplicity and their ability to be started by almost anything with opposable thumbs. My "Hasenpfeffer post" was directed at owners, not the engines. If you get fuel and air in some reasonable ratio into the combustion chamber, the mags with take care of the rest. It's pretty easy to do (see hank's procedure). If the engine is not starting easily there's probably something else going on. Another testament to the simplicity of these engines is that will run reasonable well even when in a suboptimal state of tune. i have never met a Lyc 4 cyl O or IO that was complicated or difficult to start unless something was very wrong with fuel delivery or ignition. The injected birds preprime themselves when they're hot, that is the only peculiarity to these engines; once you're aware of it, starting is no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 One thing nice about a primer pump, besides a nice measured volume of fuel being delivered closer to an intake valve... The primer can add a little more to keep the O360 running in that first minute or so. The IO550 has 'Low Boost' to achieve that. My thoughts, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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