Aerodynamics

[Releew]

Just curious to know why Mooney's require heavy control inputs.  I've got a few hours is several type of aircraft and the Mooney just feels heavy.  I've flown the C and J models and don't really see that much difference in control.  I tried to explain it away to myself and pointed to the tubes as the reasoning for the heavy control inputs, but if that were the case, the RV4, 6 and 7 would maybe feel the same.  I know we're talking different airplanes with two completely different wing designs but if you've had your hands on other birds I think you would agree.   

So...what is it?  The tight feel is great but the control force seems to take higher user input than most. Curious!

Rick

 

[carusoam]

Leverage and balance..?  Mechanical design can be changed to obtain the light or heavy feeling that you desire.

Somebody named Al wanted it that way.

The O isn't any different in feel.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited October 1, 2015 by carusoam

[Releew]

Thanks!

[Shadrach]

I think part of it is the "rub blocks" that are an integral part of Mooney's pushrod design.  I've gotten used to it over the years.  I only find Mooneys to be heavy in the roll axis. Pitch and yaw are pretty light. I do prefer the solid and connected feel over the feel brand C and P products. 

[Guest]

Just curious to know why Mooney's require heavy control inputs.  I've got a few hours is several type of aircraft and the Mooney just feels heavy.  I've flown the C and J models and don't really see that much difference in control.  I tried to explain it away to myself and pointed to the tubes as the reasoning for the heavy control inputs, but if that were the case, the RV4, 6 and 7 would maybe feel the same.  I know we're talking different airplanes with two completely different wing designs but if you've had your hands on other birds I think you would agree.   

So...what is it?  The tight feel is great but the control force seems to take higher user input than most. Curious!

Rick

 

The RV series has very light controls, the Mooney while equipped with push rod controls has many more joints and bell cranks.  As well the aileron tubes on a Mooney have several guide blocks in the wings which add friction to the system.

Clarence

[gsengle]

It's not the friction in the system it's aerodynamic differences mostly I'd think... Plus higher airspeeds....

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[jetdriven]

A lot of it is the mechanical advantage. Full aileron deflection is only 40 degrees of yoke deflection. In brand P and C planes it is twice as much yoke deflection for the same input.  So it takes more effort to displace the aileron a given amount. 

The elevator had bungees in it, so any displacement from zero and you are not only overcoming aerodynamic force but also fighting the bungee. 

[Shadrach]

 

 

It's not the friction in the system it's aerodynamic differences mostly I'd think... Plus higher airspeeds....

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

you can't really feel the friction in the system unless the control surfaces are aerodynamically loaded. Little to no pressure on the guide (rub) blocks unless there is resistance on the ailerons.

[Andy95W]

I do prefer the solid and connected feel over the feel brand C and P products. 

Good description.  Not heavy controls, but "solid and connected."

[Shadrach]

Good description.  Not heavy controls, but "solid and connected."

I'm used to it now. I used to think it felt like stirring cement! 

[WardHolbrook]

Some of the bizjets I flew where quite heavy on the controls as well and they were hydraulically boosted so they could have been as light as a feather if that's what the designers and engineers would have wanted. The one thing in common these aircraft have was that they could cruise right up against the barber pole. Keeping the control forces heavy meant that it would be much harder for "ham handed" pilots like me to over control the airplane at speed.- especially in pitch but also in roll. Same thing with our Mooneys. They're traveling machines, not aerobatic mounts so having heavy controls adds a safety factor when you're cruising along at the upper end of the green band (or a bit higher) on your ASI. 

The Lear I flew was FUN to fly, but you had to be VERY careful with it. That puppy was pitch sensitive. You flew those things with 1/4 degree pitch inputs. At speed each degree of pitch input translates to a rate of climb or descent of 1000 fpm X your indicated Mach. In other words, If you're cruising along at .80 mach, each degree of pitch change will give you a 800 fpm climb or dive. If you're a ham-handed pilot it's not too conducive for passenger comfort (and long-term employment) if you get my drift. Newer generations of jet aircraft had much stiffer controls to make it easier on the airframe and passengers when guys like me were flying. But seriously, it doesn't take very long to get used to the control sensitivity of transport category aircraft (most bizjets are certified under Part 25 transport category rules). Some aircraft like the 3-engine Falcon 50s and 900s that I flew had systems that adapted the control forces based upon your indicated speed. That's all well and good in a mega-million dollar jet, but it's a little too rich for most Mooney owners. 

Bottom line is that the Mooney brothers were ahead of their time in more than one way. Be grateful that you have a traveling machine that's fast enough to merit stiff controls. Whether you know it or not, it's probably saved a few lives.  

[gsxrpilot]

The longer cross country flights that the Mooney was originally designed for, really make you appreciate the solid, connected feel. Flying a Mooney for two hours is positively relaxing compared to the same in brand C or P.

[bonal]

To me it just feels tight not heavy like a race car on slicks. perhaps you just need to hit the gym... muscle up and fly that J my man.

[steingar]

The longer cross country flights that the Mooney was originally designed for, really make you appreciate the solid, connected feel. Flying a Mooney for two hours is positively relaxing compared to the same in brand C or P.

The flight back from Atlanta in my new-to-me M20C was the most relaxing I've ever had.

[Releew]

Thanks all...  Great comments and I learned from it.  Wasn't complaining....just curious!  This is a Rock Solid bird!!!!!

 

Rick

[lamont337]

Some early models (like mine) also have curved ailerons which increase roll forces required as mentioned in the M20E evail:

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/m20e.html

[cliffy]

The hardest airplane I ever flew was a Lear 23 at 41,000' without autopilot (the early A/Ps on old Lears really didn't work too well on the ones I flew long before RVSM). Ward knows what he's talking about. 

Mooneys are a joy compared!

[testwest]

Byron is quite right about the roll axis. The Mooney yoke full travel is fairly small in terms of angular displacement for full aileron travel.

Friction in any non-reversible control system is typically a bad thing. Definitely pay attention to periodic maintenance actions with regard to control system lubrication.

There are two other things to look for, free play and breakout force. The solid, connected feel very nicely described above is a result of low free play and medium breakout forces. Airplanes with cable control systems (as opposed to pushrods like we have) tend to have some freeplay in the system due to cable stretch and tensioning.

 

[donkaye]

Just curious to know why Mooney's require heavy control inputs.  I've got a few hours is several type of aircraft and the Mooney just feels heavy.  I've flown the C and J models and don't really see that much difference in control.  I tried to explain it away to myself and pointed to the tubes as the reasoning for the heavy control inputs, but if that were the case, the RV4, 6 and 7 would maybe feel the same.  I know we're talking different airplanes with two completely different wing designs but if you've had your hands on other birds I think you would agree.   

So...what is it?  The tight feel is great but the control force seems to take higher user input than most. Curious!

Rick

 

In my opinion if you even notice the control as a force, you are not flying the airplane correctly. The Mooney should be flown as you drive a car.  Do you feel a force on the steering wheel when you change lanes?  Slight control pressure is all that is needed to gracefully fly the Mooney.  I've never given the flying of the Mooney a second thought as to difficult control pressure.  I assure you your passengers will appreciate a pilot who doesn't jerk the airplane around.  That includes looking like a one arm paper hanger while on approach and into the flare, to which I've been a witness too many times.  With the airplane properly trimmed you should be able to control it with the pointer finger and thumb of each hand.

Edited October 17, 2015 by donkaye

[Mooneymite]

...  With the airplane properly trimmed you should be able to control it with the pointer finger and thumb of each hand.

Don, you wouldn'tbe expending so much effort if you use the autoland feature more!

[Releew]

It was described as heavy control inputs, not a force.  And yes, you can fly the airplane with a finger and a thumb, but no matter how you look at it....  it takes higher input pressure to get the airplane to respond in the roll axis.  I was curious to why, as my question was more directed toward the mechanical design not flying technique.

Byron is quite right about the roll axis. The Mooney yoke full travel is fairly small in terms of angular displacement for full aileron travel.

 

Rick 

[Andy95W]

If you pull the power back and slow down to about 100-110 knots, you'll be delighted by the light, responsive feel of the Mooney's controls.

Course, flying that slow sucks.  Ask any C-172 pilot.

[Releew]

Agree!  Sucks!

[jetdriven]

But the 3.9 GPH while flying next to a  Carbon Cub burning 8 GPH makes it alright.