Mooney down in Atlantic

[Danb]

Gsengle

 

yes..very somber

i went to bed at 9:00 and fell asleep at 2:00 am

somber, sad ,surreal, words can't explain

 

only prayers and sadness left for his loved ones..

 

[chrisk]

Most of the O2 systems I am aware of use push-on hose connections and it is possible one could dislodge without being noticed. I have never had one come loose.

I had this happen once in a climb.  Around 15,000 feet I felt off, pulled out the pulseoximeter, and saw low O2.  I went to check the flow meter and it wasn't connected.  It probably happened when I was putting on the cannula.  Now I no longer worry about conserving O2.  I turn the flow up enough that I can feel it blowing lightly in my nose.  I also check my O2 levels any time I feel even the slightest off.

[IndyTim]

Many folks are using the pulse demand O2 systems like the O2D2 from Mountain High.  I have one and use it constantly above 12,000.  I also carry a backup tank.

The tragedy of the Glazers' TBM-900 loss near Cuba made me think hard about O2 use, and to develop a definite protocol in the event of O2 issues of any kind.  I was worried that, if I had an O2 interruption at FL220 or 230, that I would lose ability to act rationally.

So my protocol is this: in the event of an O2 issue of any kind in Class A, it requires an immediate descent.  I would set AP vertical speed to -1400 fpm, THEN notify ATC of the emergency, THEN fiddle with the backup.  That way I should be in breathable air in a few minutes, if I lose ability to function.

Shortly after I made this decision, I was at FL230 and my pulse system failed.  I followed the protocol.  Except I was so confused that I asked ATC for "FL120" (heading eastbound) - all I could think was I needed to get to 12000. ATC was incredibly accommodating.  I was down at 16000 or so before I got access to O2 again, by bypassing the pulse system.  ATC didn't ask if I wanted to declare until I was down to about 15,000, and by then it was ok.  They checked in with me again after a few minutes to make sure everythin was ok.

As it turned out, the rechargeable batteries I was using had failed.  Lesson: just buy new high quality batteries for that system. 

[carusoam]

Tim,

Thanks for sharing your real life experience.

Are you able to set your altitude or just your descent rate?

It would be really nice to set it to 10k' and know that it will go and stay there.

My KAP150 lacks that extra step.  Descending at 1500fpm doesn't last very long below 10k'...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited September 13, 2015 by carusoam

[aviatoreb]

Many folks are using the pulse demand O2 systems like the O2D2 from Mountain High.  I have one and use it constantly above 12,000.  I also carry a backup tank.

The tragedy of the Glazers' TBM-900 loss near Cuba made me think hard about O2 use, and to develop a definite protocol in the event of O2 issues of any kind.  I was worried that, if I had an O2 interruption at FL220 or 230, that I would lose ability to act rationally.

So my protocol is this: in the event of an O2 issue of any kind in Class A, it requires an immediate descent.  I would set AP vertical speed to -1400 fpm, THEN notify ATC of the emergency, THEN fiddle with the backup.  That way I should be in breathable air in a few minutes, if I lose ability to function.

Shortly after I made this decision, I was at FL230 and my pulse system failed.  I followed the protocol.  Except I was so confused that I asked ATC for "FL120" (heading eastbound) - all I could think was I needed to get to 12000. ATC was incredibly accommodating.  I was down at 16000 or so before I got access to O2 again, by bypassing the pulse system.  ATC didn't ask if I wanted to declare until I was down to about 15,000, and by then it was ok.  They checked in with me again after a few minutes to make sure everythin was ok.

As it turned out, the rechargeable batteries I was using had failed.  Lesson: just buy new high quality batteries for that system. 

I am disturbed by the failure mode you described for the 02d2.  I use the O2D2 and I like it very much for both the fact that it conserves o2 but also I like that I can feel the air pulse into my nose (or hear it in my mask as it sounds like darth vador breathing).

I am disturbed of your failure mode because according to the o2d2 litt if it fails due to bad batteries, it is supposed to fail open meaning revert to constant open flow.

[M016576]

Speculation---

First I don't think he should have gone at the time he did.  I see he was an experienced pilot with a Commercial rating who had been flying for 40 years, so the fact that he did is surprising.   I learned long ago that, at least for me, I don't much care for the flight levels in an unpressurized airplane.  The body doesn't react very well.  15-18K is good enough and leaves more time of useful consciousness if O2 problems develop. On long trips where it might be necessary to go higher safely, I take along a secondary O2 tank that can quickly be used in the event of failure of the primary tank.  It's really necessary to do a Chamber ride if you plan to go high.  You just have to know your hypoxic signals  and react quickly.  This implies having several pulse oximeters at hand and using them at the first sign of hypoxia.  A few years ago I was ferrying a 231 to Colorado.  The plane did not have a built in oxygen system.  I carried several O2 tanks and flew at 17K.  I switched tanks in the middle of the flight and after a few minutes felt light headed.  I checked the pulse oximeter and it said 85%.  Turns out I had turned the valve the wrong direction.  I quickly turned it the right direction and felt better immediately.   You just have to know your symptoms.

While its possible it was a heart attack, I think it more likely a hypoxia incident and most likely he would be alive today had he just not gone.

Assuming the AP was in altitude hold mode,  I think it would have held altitude until the stall after the plane exhausted the full in one of the tanks, and then tried hold altitude with the elevator back in the descent. Thus the low speed in the descent.  I don't know if it would hold wings level in the descent (my KFC 150 won't) and I never tried it with the GFC 700, but at some point maybe the AP disconnected and with the fuel imbalance between the full tank and the empty one the airplane went into a steep spiral.   That may have occurred at 13,000 feet where the descent rate dramatically increased.

Of course, all just pure speculation on my part....

having lost a few friends to hypoxia in fighter jets, and having taken multiple trips through the ROBD (reduced oxygen breathing device- think simulator where the oxygen concentration in your mask is reduced by the physician and console operator, then you are required to fly basic IFR procedures and maneuvers until you recognize that you're hypoxic and take action) and through the altitude chamber, I agree with your assessment... in a fast jet you can initiate a "rapid descent" without worry... speedbrake plus idle, plus straight down... and you lose 10,000' in 30 seconds, and even that doesn't always save guys.  In a light aircraft like ours, you're trapped up there for much longer than you want to be... remember, your TUC's are based on good O2 volume in your blood up to the point of loss of O2... if you've already lost O2 and are starting a descent, getting down from 250 to 180 may not be enough... you may need to get down to 150 to avoid losing consciousness..... and you'll most likely need to ID the situation, respond appropriately and get the aircraft into a max rate descent in a scant few minutes. 

 

Carry a back up, self contained, fully serviced system (that you preflight religiously) if you plan on being up in the "mask-on-o-sphere"... 300 bucks is money well worth it if something happens to your primary.

[Hosshawk]

Being a retired military pilot, I lost track of how many alt chamber rides I've done.  If I had to guess, I'd say between 8 and 12.  The one thing everyone needs to understand, is that everyone is different in their ability to function at altitude.  For me at 25k, I've got about a minute or less to recognize hypoxia, and get on backup O2.  Probably less now that I'm older.  I remember one guy from Colorado Springs (6200ft) that went almost 5 minutes.  The safety guy in the chamber finally told him that was long enough, and to put his mask back on.  He was able to comply!!!  I'm sure there are Sherpas from Kathmandu that could go a very long time at 25k.  There were other pilots in the chamber, that became euphoric, requiring the safety guy to put their masks back on for them.   

The most important thing is to recognize hypoxia, and get on backup O2 first.  Do not waste time trying to trouble shoot your malfunctioning system, or start your descent.  If I had a one button emergency descent system as part of my autopilot, I'd probably push it as I was reaching for my bottle.  

You must have a backup bottle, that's fully charged, within arms reach, that you function tested prior to your flight.

Once safely on your backup O2, start your descent and declare an emergency!

It behoves everyone flying in the flight levels, to do at least one alt chamber ride.  You'll never know how you're going to react till you do. 

Bob

Everything above is my opinion. 

    

Edited September 13, 2015 by Hosshawk

[M016576]

Many folks are using the pulse demand O2 systems like the O2D2 from Mountain High.  I have one and use it constantly above 12,000.  I also carry a backup tank.

The tragedy of the Glazers' TBM-900 loss near Cuba made me think hard about O2 use, and to develop a definite protocol in the event of O2 issues of any kind.  I was worried that, if I had an O2 interruption at FL220 or 230, that I would lose ability to act rationally.

So my protocol is this: in the event of an O2 issue of any kind in Class A, it requires an immediate descent.  I would set AP vertical speed to -1400 fpm, THEN notify ATC of the emergency, THEN fiddle with the backup.  That way I should be in breathable air in a few minutes, if I lose ability to function.

Shortly after I made this decision, I was at FL230 and my pulse system failed.  I followed the protocol.  Except I was so confused that I asked ATC for "FL120" (heading eastbound) - all I could think was I needed to get to 12000. ATC was incredibly accommodating.  I was down at 16000 or so before I got access to O2 again, by bypassing the pulse system.  ATC didn't ask if I wanted to declare until I was down to about 15,000, and by then it was ok.  They checked in with me again after a few minutes to make sure everythin was ok.

As it turned out, the rechargeable batteries I was using had failed.  Lesson: just buy new high quality batteries for that system. 

That's also a good point.  but remember to clear your flight path as you start down (if you're in VMC).  I had a close call with a Southwest 737 when I experienced a dual bleed air failure in my F-18 a few years ago (dual bleed air failure auto isolates, and shuts off air to the OBOGS- the onboard oxygen generation, as well as cabin pressure...).  I pulled my emergency O2 bottle and started a rapid descent... luckily I saw the 737 below me- I was close enough to read the tail and see the colors.  I do agree with you: AVIATE navigate, communicate.  Save your own life first... then declare the emergency and sort it out with center or ATC.

[donkaye]

Just heard from a flight instructor at the PPP that the wreckage was recovered, so maybe we'll now find out what happened if they can get the G1000 data.

Edited September 13, 2015 by donkaye

[IndyTim]

Tim,

Thanks for sharing your real life experience.

Are you able to set your altitude or just your descent rate?

It would be really nice to set it to 10k' and know that it will go and stay there.

My KAP150 lacks that extra step.  Descending at 1500fpm doesn't last very long below 10k'...

Best regards,

-a-

I also have a KAP150.  When I said I dial in 1500fpm, I didn't mean that I have an actual VSI preset.  I've experimented with this, and know that if I hit ALT (disabling ALT hold) and then hit the AP trim down button and hold for a count of one thousand one, I'm in the ballpark.  I just need to know that I've started down to breathable air, and need the simplest, most immediate, CERTAIN way to ensure this.  This is the best I've been able to come with, given my equipment ('87 TSE with KAP 150).

I'm not worried about what will happen below 10k.  Unless I'm over high terrain, and that would require me to rethink my protocol before I fly those types of routes.  I'll be in breathable air and back to my senses before I get to 10k.  I know that because I've experienced it.

[IndyTim]

I am disturbed by the failure mode you described for the 02d2.  I use the O2D2 and I like it very much for both the fact that it conserves o2 but also I like that I can feel the air pulse into my nose (or hear it in my mask as it sounds like darth vador breathing).

I am disturbed of your failure mode because according to the o2d2 litt if it fails due to bad batteries, it is supposed to fail open meaning revert to constant open flow.

Mine did not fail that way.  In fact mine has failed twice, both times at high altitude, and both times (I believe) because of my battery choice.  But it wasn't until the second failure that I was able to attribute it to the batteries, and it unsettled me enough (doh) that I developed the protocol I mentioned.  I don't recal reading the information you describe, will have to go check that out.  But mine failed closed.

[Piloto]

When flying high I always carry a flight jacket with me. 

José

[aviatoreb]

When flying high I always carry a flight jacket with me. 

José

Does that help with Hypoxia?

[aviatoreb]

Mine did not fail that way.  In fact mine has failed twice, both times at high altitude, and both times (I believe) because of my battery choice.  But it wasn't until the second failure that I was able to attribute it to the batteries, and it unsettled me enough (doh) that I developed the protocol I mentioned.  I don't recal reading the information you describe, will have to go check that out.  But mine failed closed.

Hmmm- that is unsettling.  I have been changing batteries every six months presumably long before they are used up (and I cycle them into my headset where it is obvious they had a lot more life to them).  But still - these units are supposed to fail to the open position, not to the closed postiion.

[gsxrpilot]

Does that help with Hypoxia?

No, but the naturally aspirated, 180hp engine up front does. :-)

[aviatoreb]

No, but the naturally aspirated, 180hp engine up front does. :-)

You put your flight jacket on the 180hp engine?

[Piloto]

Does that help with Hypoxia?

No, but it helps with hypothermia if your cabin heat fails at FL250. 

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html

José

 

Edited September 14, 2015 by Piloto

[charlesual]

So incredibly sad. By all appearance our fellow mooney space brother had the skill and the equipment to fly in the flight levels and IFR. I don't want to diminish his or anyone else's ability but say this from the perspective of a guy that flys for a living. I wouldn't do what some of you guys do with a whole lot less experience. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Your risks go way up when things go wrong. In this case Michael was in thin air, weather, single pilot, one motor, time pressures and probably oxygen issues. Even for Chuck Yeager that's a lot!! It's so seductive to have these planes with all the incredible capabilities. It's very seductive to catch a nice tailwind and get above weather up high but not without risk. Let this tragedy serve as a reminder that we all need to get honest about the exponential risks of flying high, near mountains, in ice, at night or low IFR.

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[MB65E]

There are companies that offer similar  training with out the Chamber ride itself. Due to the inherent danger,  expense, and lack of availability they found a way to simulate high altitude operation. Corporate Air Parts in Van Nuys has a flight simulator that you can fly. The participant flys the sim hooked up to a mask that the instructor can control. The instructor then provides ATC like instructions. Finally, during all this they can displace the oxygen thru the mask you have on by increasing the other gasses. It's a good way to get the feel for the symptoms with out needing to be at the actual altitude. They told me the Navy has a similar type of training device and they are trying to move away from the chamber rides. All I know is at FL240, little masks that GA offers is not enough air for me. They just don't seal well enough. I'd rather have a helmet with a real mask. 

Hopefully we will know more about the accident to be better educated aviators.

-Matt

[charlesual]

I think it's highly probable that if one goes unconscious due to lack of oxygen it becomes more then a little nap till a lower altitude. I would think the brain shuts down and there's no coming back and that happens fairly quickly. When we practice high-dives from FL430, (simulating loss of pressurization) if the oxygen masks don't deploy or activate by pulling the mask to your face, people will die. That's why in the safety briefings they say put your own mask on before helping others. At those altitudes useful consciousness is about 5 seconds. Even diving at Mach snot takes several minutes to get to thick air.

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[Danb]

Matt

thats an awesome idea to try and put together a altitude chamber for our group, also it would be great if out MAPA safety foundation could arrange for a few around the USA.

i just returned from the safety course from AC and if I would have thought of it I'd have spoken with the directors explaining the need and request for them to do this.

i plan on e- mailing Ted, Jack Ralph and Dr P. Today with that awesome idea and request.

this is a situation regarding another thread about when ,where and what to say about the loss of one of our comrades ..a great idea emerged..if we sat back and merely critized Mike that's wrong by using his loss for future safety learning experiences turns the tragedy into a forum of ideas

 

may he rest in peace..and Godspeed to all my fellow mooniacs and other GA drivers

 

Dan

 

 

[Shadrach]

So incredibly sad. By all appearance our fellow mooney space brother had the skill and the equipment to fly in the flight levels and IFR. I don't want to diminish his or anyone else's ability but say this from the perspective of a guy that flys for a living. I wouldn't do what some of you guys do with a whole lot less experience. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Your risks go way up when things go wrong. In this case Michael was in thin air, weather, single pilot, one motor, time pressures and probably oxygen issues. Even for Chuck Yeager that's a lot!! It's so seductive to have these planes with all the incredible capabilities. It's very seductive to catch a nice tailwind and get above weather up high but not without risk. Let this tragedy serve as a reminder that we all need to get honest about the exponential risks of flying high, near mountains, in ice, at night or low IFR.

 

 

 

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Charlie, do you own a beautifully modded, silver F model that I would have seen parked in the transient spots at FDK?

[charlesual]

You mean this one?

I think it owns me though.

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[gsxrpilot]

Body and plane have been recovered...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/plane-crashed-atlantic-ocean-recovered-33741617

 

[mike_elliott]

 

I do recommend those that haven't, find an altitude chamber and see what the cost is. Perhaps we can even set something up for a Mooney chamber event. Knowing how it feels, and how YOU feel is imperative. My symptoms were completely different than the guy next to me, and they aren't at all what's in the book. Everyone's physiological anatomy is different. If you can simulate it, do it. 

We are working at getting the chamber ride at Tindall for next year's Mooney Summit with the USAF. We tried to get it this year, but it was unavailable for the dates we needed it. Additionally, the FAA has a portable Oxygen depreviation "ride" and a spatial disorientation ride we are trying to secure for next year, budget permitting.