Unintensional spin ( 201)

[Shadrach]

Upside down in the weeds on fire - a termed coined by S&C Bob (sympathetic and caring) when he described the "itty bitty" bolt that holds the mooney tail on failing being a bigger issue than most when people would express a concern on aviating.com 15 years ago. He got his nickname from such dark, and negative  (yet humorous) scenarios'

 

 

I remember some of his posts from the list.  I think he's "Gone West", No? 

[mike_elliott]

I remember some of his posts from the list.  I think he's "Gone West", No? 

I am not sure, I know he sold his E, and built an RV. I believe he was a Prof. at AU. (roll tide). His pragmatism and wit along with wisdom is missed.

[Hank]

War Eagle, Mike. See you soon in PC (assuming it's not a PC place; I realize it's not the Redneck Riviera anymore . . .).

[OBX-Pilot]

Just a little factoid from AOPA's Air Safety Foundation. The pilots statistically  least likely to have a stall/spin accident are Student Pilots and ATPs. And Private and Commercial Pilots are the most likely to have a stall/spin accident.

 

In my experience the single most important factor should one encounter an inadvertent spin (only fools and test pilots intentionally spin aircraft that the POH prohibits spins in)  is "have you been there before and do you know the way out." Book knowledge will be of almost no value...

 

As far as upset training a former student of mine found himself inverted in a Cessna 206. Now by that time he had over 2,000 hours,was a Commercial pilot and a CFI ... and having never been inverted he did exactly the wrong thing ... he attempted a split S. Fortunately he was at 6,000 feet and recovered to level flight at 1,000 feet. He is not a fool... he was just ignorant. 

 

[Resanborn]

Cruiser

Yes my partner and I will continue to fly together. We are both going to CT to get some unusual attitude and stall spin training next week. I have been reading every thing and any thing about spinning a Mooney. My take home so far is that we were lucky it seams like a lot of bad things can happen including flat spins and of course running out of altitude. I think my partner was just a little too complacent and we both had not briefed what was the procedure if the wing drops and starts a spin entry. It happen quick but we both knew we were on the edge of stall with an occasional buffet. In retrospect I could see things happening but was slow to intervene because he was the PIC and certainly he could see this occurring as well. I like to fly and fly a reasonable amount but I am Not A CFI or a teacher -- different mind set I think. So if this post gives people food for thought and in any way improves flight safety I am happy that I posted it. Fly safe. I will post a note about my experience with the upset training next week weather permitting.

[carusoam]

See if you can post some YouTube video of the training. That could be interesting for a few people in the area.

Best regards,

-a-

[OBX-Pilot]

Cruiser

Yes my partner and I will continue to fly together. We are both going to CT to get some unusual attitude and stall spin training next week. I have been reading every thing and any thing about spinning a Mooney. My take home so far is that we were lucky it seams like a lot of bad things can happen including flat spins and of course running out of altitude. I think my partner was just a little too complacent and we both had not briefed what was the procedure if the wing drops and starts a spin entry. It happen quick but we both knew we were on the edge of stall with an occasional buffet. In retrospect I could see things happening but was slow to intervene because he was the PIC and certainly he could see this occurring as well. I like to fly and fly a reasonable amount but I am Not A CFI or a teacher -- different mind set I think. So if this post gives people food for thought and in any way improves flight safety I am happy that I posted it. Fly safe. I will post a note about my experience with the upset training next week weather permitting.

 

That is about the best take-away from your incident you could make. Both of you will be better pilots when you are done. It amazes me how often someone will spend a large amount on an airplane then short cut training. 

 

One point if I may. Most often in the training scenario the spin is entered from a power off stall. It is incredibly important to thoroughly "get" that the first step in spin recovery is Power to Idle. Many if not most aircraft will not recover from a spin with power. Enjoy your training. 

[Shadrach]

Ross, is it possible that the ball is not level? Perhaps the ball was leveled to "fix" a slightly out of rig condition.

It's possible, but the plane has had one prior owner and he is still a partner. Having the rigging checked is on my list.

[aviatoreb]

Cruiser

Yes my partner and I will continue to fly together. We are both going to CT to get some unusual attitude and stall spin training next week. I have been reading every thing and any thing about spinning a Mooney. My take home so far is that we were lucky it seams like a lot of bad things can happen including flat spins and of course running out of altitude. I think my partner was just a little too complacent and we both had not briefed what was the procedure if the wing drops and starts a spin entry. It happen quick but we both knew we were on the edge of stall with an occasional buffet. In retrospect I could see things happening but was slow to intervene because he was the PIC and certainly he could see this occurring as well. I like to fly and fly a reasonable amount but I am Not A CFI or a teacher -- different mind set I think. So if this post gives people food for thought and in any way improves flight safety I am happy that I posted it. Fly safe. I will post a note about my experience with the upset training next week weather permitting.

 

Danbury, CT eh?  That is conveniently located for me too.  I have had a bit of unusual attitude training on my to-do list too.  I will look forward to your review.  What is the name of the school please so I can look them up?

 

Rigging - good point.  I had my airplane rigged as a speed check activity, but it is also a good thing over all, and the first step in rigging checks is that they made well sure that the whole panel was level so they would not be chasing false readings.

[MyNameIsNobody]

I did my flight review a few weeks ago. I am a VFR pilot and totally enjoy my review as I get out of the box. I asked for hood training and I proceeded to fly the whole review with foggles on. Slow flight power off and on stalls under hood. Upset recovery. Feeling good about myself until instructor pulled power and said you are in the soup. I am thinking pitch down for airspeed and I am not understanding...while looking at instruments why I can not get 100mph. I lost 1000 feet before instructor said are you diving? Well duh. Great experience. He said O.K. You just broke out. He was giving me headings and got me lined up with Washington. Redeemed myself with a nice full landing and several more nice landings before hood return to home field. Unusual attitude recovery training would be great!

[Aerodon]

I did spinning training for my private and commercial in a Tomahawk.  Really used to spin compared with a C150 / C172 / PA28.  Used to climb to 8000 AGL and regularly used 3-4000 ft.  Sometimes it would take 2 or 3 turns to recover.  Exciting.

 

My instructor always used to say 'stall, spin, crash, burn' in quick succession every time I got too slow or too steep in any manoeuvre until it was drilled into me.

 

Years later I saw this video:  It is disturbing so don't watch if it is likely to upset you.  

 

 

I've seen too many accidents where the pilot tries to turn back, stretch the glide, or stalls 50 feet above the ground with a bad engine.  Conversely I've seen accidents where the pilot flies the plane all the way into the trees or very inhospitable terrain and survives a totally wrecked plane.  Its very counterintuitive to purposely avoid the stall and file into something bad.  Just like its counterintuitive to do a spin recovery.  I can say that after a few spins, spin recovery becomes automatic enough that I think I'll manage.  But realistically if you do the stall/spin on base leg you are toast, so find some method that works for you to stay well away from the limit. 

 

My takeoff routine is to reaffirm that I'm not turning back, and where my 'fields' are.  Hope it works if I ever need it.

 

Don

[OBX-Pilot]

An upset attitude where no one's upset ... 

 

 

...least of all the 12 year old girl in the front 'pit' ("I'm almost 13 Pahpaw...")

 

In this case (a reverse Cuban 8) I am waiting for airspeed to diminish to pull thru like in a Split S ... almost never the answer in a true upset. Roll to the nearest upright with full aileron ... 

[Shadrach]

Great shot!!! Just north of the Oregon Inlet?  Are you based at Dare County?

[MyNameIsNobody]

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[OBX-Pilot]

Great shot!!! Just north of the Oregon Inlet?  Are you based at Dare County?

 

Very observant!  I live within 5 minutes of KMQI. It was a job requirement when I moved here in '89.... Now it's just convenient. 

[carl]

So I got in touch with Dylan Aviation,(http://www.dylanaviation.com/ ) Indiantown airport Florida (X58) Thanks to TJ.

 

And they have some upset training for $200  , I am thinking of doing the 4 hour course for $480. They are busy until september for a saturday class, which is when I can get down there . 

 

I used to fly my old grumman into indiantown, which is about a hour away drive from my pompano beach base, (which I never get to). This is a perfect excuse to get there. 

 

Woohoooo.

[ArtVandelay]

Carl, pls give us a PIREP when you are done. I'm thinking of taking it this later this year.

[carl]

ok , great idea

[Ftlausa]

I have talked to, but not flown with Jim Alsip (at Dylan Aviation).  I have also read his tail wheel book.  He seems quite knowledgeable and has a good reputation.  I am sure he will be good for the upset training.  I did mine at Wingover Aerobatics at Leesburg with Steve Wolf and Kathy Hirtz.  They were fantastic and I highly recommend them. 

[GeorgePerry]

My partner with over 1500 hours flight time 350 in Mooneys practicing slow flight entered a spin. The 201 spins rather quickly disorienting if you are looking out the window at the ground! He froze at the controls trying to pull back on the yoke. We probably did three full revolutions before I was able to neutralize the yoke push forward and right rudder(left spin) the plane responde exactly as we have been taught. I would not go out and seek this experience. I only bring this up to show it can happen to any one. So grab a CFI and get some spin upset training it could save your life! I was sure thankful that I have had real spin training in a Cessna 150 Aerobat. IT WAS SCARRY!

 

 

That's a GREAT lesson to share.  With spin training being required only for CFI candidates many pilots can fly for hundreds or thousands of hours and never experience a spin, know what it "feels like" or understands the recovery techniques.  Its really important for "EVERYONE" to receive spin training in a aircraft certified to do so and with a highly experienced and qualified CFI.  And yes the venerable Cessna 150 is a superb spin trainer! 

[Rszent]

I guess the saying goes back to stick and rudder....... When I practice slow flight to a full stall you can stop the wing from falling with rudder inputs forget the ailerons they just induce the stall more. Put your hands in your lap and do a rudder dance right rudder to raise the left wing ect.,the Mooney will just flutter level off until the nose drops and flies itself out of the stall........get up to altitude and know your upset attitude recovery if you need it......

[billy bob]

I was a member of the early list. i drive by bobs place every day. His M20 is there sitting in the grass on the little farm there. 

It's right side up tail bolt still in.

[larrynimmo]

On 7/26/2015 at 11:16 AM, aviatoreb said:

 

Danbury, CT eh?  That is conveniently located for me too.  I have had a bit of unusual attitude training on my to-do list too.  I will look forward to your review.  What is the name of the school please so I can look them up?

 

Rigging - good point.  I had my airplane rigged as a speed check activity, but it is also a good thing over all, and the first step in rigging checks is that they made well sure that the whole panel was level so they would not be chasing false readings.

Flying into Danbury can be scary as there are mountains and you land in a narrow valley depending on which runway you face....my lleft base entry was at about 1,000 fpm  decent because of my discomfort of transversing mountains.

[Bentonck]

On 7/21/2015 at 8:49 PM, Marauder said:

There was an old time pilot who told me once that "if bad sh$t happens while you are flying, undo the last thing you did". So, I let go of the brakes, the tires grabbed and I steered away from the wall.

 

 

Great quote.  My original CFI told me the same thing, he was ex-Navy and came with a gruff countenance, little chit-chat (for a pilot, anyway), and a lot of solid knowledge imparted through the measured use of one-liners.

I (me being 16 at the time and thinking $100 was a LOT of money to spend on sunglasses) asked him one day if I should spend the money and get Ray-Bans or just keep using my WalMart el-cheapos that I had used up until that time.  He looked at me with a little frown and said "You only get one pair of eyes, son".  That was it, end of conversation.

[cliffy]

Mooney  spins-  Had a conversation once with Bill Wheat  He related a time he did a spin and it went 5 1/2 turns because he was having a tough time getting it out of the spin after 3 turns,  he said he'd never try that again in a Mooney. Maybe there's a reason why Mooneys are not certified for spins? 

Did lots of spins in a 150 before I got my Private, my instructor required it.

My Commercial ride consisted of two turns about a point and spins for the next 45 mins. That's all. The DPE was a retired FAA GADO manager This was all back in the mid 60s.