New path to user fees

[jetdriven]

Fwiw,

This is one job I think the government should do. I do not favor ATC Privatization.

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all the proponents of privatization forget it usually costs more and delivers less. Like the Lockheed Martin ongoing deal with 1800-WX-BRIEF.  nonpilot briefers reading off a computer screen in Omaha and no training other than how to read the METAR to you. 2 hour waits to speak to a briefer. etc etc etc.   They privatize this, and sooner or later, some minimum wage flunkie will fall asleep in his chair and ram two 767s together over Wichita, Breaking Bad style.  Then the outcry to re-federalize it. But no, its a contract, you have to pay 20B to get out of it. A deal's a deal. 

 

  Three Mile Island comes to mind.  Sorry about that, we wont melt it down again, we'll just forget how the system operates, close the cooling valves and melt it down, then dump 700,000 gallons of radioactive water into the Susquehanna.  Then they raised the rates and made the same citizens they poisoned pay for the 1B cleanup. 

 

Some things are so sacred as to only be trusted with the Government. ATC is one.

[Marauder]

Haha!!! That was easy! Have a great weekend guys.

I wonder how much our user fees will be! I wonder how much they TELL US they will be? and what they will really turn out to be? And I wonder how much they'll be raised after the first year? That could never happen right ... just look at AHA ...

I just hope they don't base it on takeoff weight. I'd be in trouble

[flyboy0681]

I just hope they don't base it on takeoff weight. I'd be in trouble

 

I hope they base it on takeoff weight, I'll get a refund!

[Guest]

Fwiw,

This is one job I think the government should do. I do not favor ATC Privatization.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aren't you part way there already? Doesn't Locheed Martin run FSS?

Clarence

[ryoder]

I hope you are wrong that fees will eventually be implemented, but right that if so ... It's many years to come.

They always seem to be able to move quickly when it comes to suing states who want to defend their borders, spending money, creating a new bureau, or regulating new fees (fees so they fly under the radar of tax increases) ... But they move slowly when it comes to things like securing our borders, finding out about IRS email servers ... Or secret private email servers or who created a story about a offensive video on a night when no one seems to remember or know anything?

What difference does it make!!

[Andy95W]

All I know is that when I used to fly to Canada often, the radios that Canadian ATC used were terrible, like the backup to the backup radios here in the U.S.

My belief is that ATC is an infrastructure, like the roads, and should therefore be a governmental function. Plus I wonder how much will we spend on collections (ala the IRS).

[ryoder]

Air Traffic Control, this is Rajeesh, how can I help you?

Have I given you excellent flight following today?

[Guest]

I just hope they don't base it on takeoff weight. I'd be in trouble

I don't think the fees would be based on how much weight you want to lift, but on what you actually can lift.

Clarence

[Guest]

Canada is a notable exception but, having been stung with a 50$ annual fee for one segment between PTK and CYGK, then the lack fuel (for 7$/gal) and lack of tie down ropes at CYGK no wonder GA is a rarity there. Its just too expensive.  Everywhere else, such as Europe is worse off.  75$ per landing, paid at each landing. then the 10$ avgas.  All the others basically have no GA at all. Corporate jets maybe, but no piston airplanes.

Byron,

You were overcharged, according to Nav Canada's web site the fee for foreign aircraft under 2 tons gross weight is $17/ quarter year.

As to the other issues you encountered in Kingston, it's one problem with many airports. Our airport does not have parking for itinerant aircraft, they leave it to the FBO's

Clarence

[Mooneymite]

User fees/privatization is ultimately a question of control.

The entities that pay the most in fees (airlines, military) will be entitled to the biggest say in how the system gets used. As the airspace gets more crowded, the little guys will be crowded out at every point. Fees will be used as a weapon against the small users.

The government is big, expensive and inefficient, but it maintains (more, or less) the egalitarian idea of equal access.

Make no mistake user fees will not help general aviation.

Whether general aviation is getting an unfair subsidy under the present system is our Achilles heel.

[cliffy]

10s don't date 4s unless there is a reason.

[flyboy0681]

I don't think the fees would be based on how much weight you want to lift, but on what you actually can lift.

Clarence

 

 

If that's the case, I'm screwed.

[cujet]

Ryoder

Daver328

 

 

Please review your position. 

 

 

Quote Rep. Schuster: 

 

"The corporation will be governed by a board of pubic users

The users will be fairly represented

Steps will be taken to prevent any conflicts of interest

We will establish a stable, self sustaining, and fair USER FEE FUNDING STRUCTURE for ATC

Free from funding uncertainty, political meddling, bureaucratic red tape that have plagued the FAA and ATC services for years... "

 

 

This sounds like government double speak if I've ever heard it. The fact is, we pay a fuel tax. It's not my fault if the fuel tax is suddenly insufficient to fund the FAA's requirements. However, since the aviation fund has had a surplus for years, those taxes built and maintained the current system quite effectively. The fact that we can't operate with current levels of taxation is also not my fault. Double taxation is not the answer. It's also unconstitutional. 

[cujet]

Fact: words matter. 

Fact: a government "fee" is still a tax

 

Definition: TAX, a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc. 2. a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand. 3. to demand a tax from (a person, business, etc.).

 

Fact: we have a system that works. Fact: I won't continue to fly if we implement a European or Canadian "user fee coupled with fuel tax" structure. Neither will most GA pilots. Fact: to implement such fees requires a large staff of individuals to monitor movement and accurately assess fees. Fact: government is horribly wasteful. Fact: government contractors are even more wasteful. 

[drapo]

Just semantic maybe, but a fee isn't a tax, it isn't "levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.", it is a retribution for a service rendered by a government or a person.

 

As far as privatization of ATC, from experience, when it will become an unstoppable reality,  it is better to accept it and make sure the end result will fit your needs and those of GA. The Canadian experience with a privatized ATC isn't perfect, but it didin't end up being the nigthmare some people thought it would be. Altough fees remained pretty constant, added investments in technology and resources were the major differences with the govenment years and the turnaround time to make important decisions was cut down dramatically.

[cujet]

Just semantic maybe, but a fee isn't a tax, it isn't "levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.", it is a retribution for a service rendered by a government or a person.

 

 

Incorrect. It's levied against a user, that's the "etc" part. 

 

A toll road, also known as a turnpike or tollway, is a public or private roadway for which a fee (or toll) is assessed for passage. It is a form of road pricing typically implemented to help recuperate the cost of road construction and maintenance, which (on public roads) amounts to a form of taxation.

 

One can, in fact, deduct such toll or road user "fees" from income taxes. 

 

It seems that the privatization of ATC, coupled with "fees" is a simply an attempt to avoid the "unconstitutional" double taxation. I'm not fooled. 

[drapo]

Incorrect. It's levied against a user, that's the "etc" part. 

 

I definitely don't buy that, you tax when you collect a percentage on the amount of a sale, a property or income. 

 

A toll road, also known as a turnpike or tollway, is a public or private roadway for which a fee (or toll) is assessed for passage. It is a form of road pricing typically implemented to help recuperate the cost of road construction and maintenance, which (on public roads) amounts to a form of taxation.

 

If I don't use a toll road, I don't pay the fee, but I do however pay taxes to maintain public roads even if i don't own a car.

 

 

It seems that the privatization of ATC, coupled with "fees" is a simply an attempt to avoid the "unconstitutional" double taxation. I'm not fooled. 

 

We don't see eye to eye on this one but that's OK. I don't mind user fees, as long as every user pays an equitable share of the whole amount. Additionally, the Canadian government doesn't pay any amount or subsidies to the privatized ATC in Canada, so I don't consider my fees as double taxation. I pay fees for driving permits, car licenses and I don't think of them as taxes. But it could be cultural, since we don't have the same Constitution, and I understand that.

[Browncbr1]

Drapo, you pay a hefty fuel tax, right? Are roads not maintained by fuel taxes in Canada? I don't remember. In any case, indeed, it is cultural.... I used to live in Canada and I was amazed by the general acceptance with what we consider high taxes. I think I was paying over 35% income, 15% sales, and I recall really high fuel tax. I was in an entry level position. Not a high earner. Property tax and insurance was astronomical. The taxation drove my employer (at the time) to reincorporate in the U.S., after Nafta passed.

I bet they will try to structure a user fee like property tax, whereas they 'assess' the value and compute that tax due as a % of the assessed value. Then, like every local municipality, whenever they want more revenue to continue bloating and wasting money, they just raise the assessment so they can continually collect more and more while claiming that they haven't "increased taxes". (%). Disgusting.

Whatever you call it, tax or fee, it's all the same and politicians use these words as spin when they need to. US Supreme Court confirmed this on obamacare.

[drapo]

Browncbr1, you're barking up the wrong tree! I live in the most taxed province in Canada and, given that I earn a salary and receive a pay stub, there is no way for me to escape from the many taxes. But this is Home!

 

Up here, we've decided to eliminate the Toll roads around 30 years ago, (2 toll bridges were built in the last 5 years, and that's it ) so we spread the cost of the freeways and roads amongst all via the tax on auto fuel. We also use part of that tax to fund environmental initiatives and public transit.

 

Not saying that our way is any better than yours, it's just different! Oh, and BTW, as I often tell my American friends, Obama would be seen as a right wing activist in Canada, trying to do away with government run universal medicare... 

[FlyDave]

Correct, Richard Branson will assume her duties

 

 

I'd say Sir Richard Branson has balls but, well, I'll let you decide for yourself......

[Browncbr1]

Up here, we've decided to eliminate the Toll roads around 30 years ago, (2 toll bridges were built in the last 5 years, and that's it ) so we spread the cost of the freeways and roads amongst all via the tax on auto fuel. We also use part of that tax to fund environmental initiatives and public transit.

So, the roadway infrastructure in Canada is funded 100% by fuel tax and they even did away with toll roads. That's reasonable. I don't know why Atc can't live by the same rules.

[aviatoreb]

I don't know why - fuel taxes don't work. if they need more money - then simple - raise the tax on each gallon. what is the excitement to make a second comcurrent path to tax - with new infrastructure to maintain that new beuracracy.

[mike_elliott]

I don't know why - fuel taxes don't work. if they need more money - then simple - raise the tax on each gallon. what is the excitement to make a second comcurrent path to tax - with new infrastructure to maintain that new beuracracy.

 More ways and paths for the $$$ to be "funneled" into the right pockets, as they, not congress, deem fit.

[drapo]

So, the roadway infrastructure in Canada is funded 100% by fuel tax and they even did away with toll roads. That's reasonable. I don't know why Atc can't live by the same rules.

 

In Canada, roads are mostly provincial. In my province, Québec, roads are funded by taxes (fuel) and fees (permits,licenses). Some other provinces have Toll roads, so I'm not sure about their funding but should be about the same, meaning split between taxes and fees.

[AndyFromCB]

 More ways and paths for the $$$ to be "funneled" into the right pockets, as they, not congress, deem fit.

 

Yeap. Someone is going to have to print and mail invoices, someone is going to have to do collections, etc, etc, etc...