IFR Question?

[Cwalsh7997]

Hey guys I had a quick question, so I'm working on my instrument and I'm not using a flight instructor now because I'm going to embry riddle in the fall so I'm gonna start on my own and I have a friend who is a ppl. I was wondering what I can do to work on my instrument or practice legally without a flight instructor? Can I do an ils approach or what?

[M20F]

If you intend to practice with a view limiting device than you need a safety pilot (http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/August/1/Pilot-Counsel-Safety-pilot). If you are landing at airport XYZ and want to just do the ILS with no view limiting device as example than you are good to go.

If you learn bad habits early on it is very difficult to unlearn them. I would reccomend flying some with an instructor or with a competent IFR pilot a bit to ensure you are doing the right things.

[larryb]

I would suggest study and pass written. You can do that all by yourself except for the instructor sign off needed to take the test.

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[mike_elliott]

If you intend to practice with a view limiting device than you need a safety pilot (http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/August/1/Pilot-Counsel-Safety-pilot). If you are landing at airport XYZ and want to just do the ILS with no view limiting device as example than you are good to go.

If you learn bad habits early on it is very difficult to unlearn them. I would reccomend flying some with an instructor or with a competent IFR pilot a bit to ensure you are doing the right things.

IFR flying is more than keeping needles centered. Practicing approaches are really the accumulation of other under the hood skill sets you need to master first. The principal of primacy is that when you first learn something, that stays with you and is hard to "unlearn".

To reinforce what M20F is saying to you, might I suggest you start your training with the best IFR instructor you can and get the fundamentals down cold. It will make your ER stint go smoothly. While it is perfectly legal to do with just a safety pilot, your life may someday depend on how well you can execute your IFR skillset. Please give this some additional consideration.

[BKlott]

With a safety pilot on board and a hood or foggles you can do quite a lot. Your safety pilot can play the role of ATC and give you vectors to headings, climbs and descents to sharpen up your basic instrument flying skills. While remaining in VFR conditions you can then go to uncontrolled fields and shoot practice approaches, request approaches into controlled fields if you're comfortable with ATC communications and procedures and even practice missed approach procedures and holding patterns.

As long as you have a qualified safety pilot on board and remain VFR, there is a lot that you can do.

[mike_elliott]

With a safety pilot on board and a hood or foggles you can do quite a lot. Your safety pilot can play the role of ATC and give you vectors to headings, climbs and descents to sharpen up your basic instrument flying skills. While remaining in VFR conditions you can then go to uncontrolled fields and shoot practice approaches, request approaches into controlled fields if you're comfortable with ATC communications and procedures and even practice missed approach procedures and holding patterns.

As long as you have a qualified safety pilot on board and remain VFR, there is a lot that you can do.

While this is true, Brian, I am convinced this should be the tactics for the last hours of the training vs starting out. The first step really should be to knock out the written. Learning fundamentals of precession, reverse sensing, etc in the air is far more expensive. Now to ride as a safety pilot with a skilled IFR rated pilot would promote a lot of knowledge transfer in it's own right. It isn't about getting the 40 hours logged, its about learning. 

[Cwalsh7997]

Since I am going to riddle next fall I can not technically record any instrument stuff such as a written or hood time. But since I have my own plane I want to use that as my advantage and practice good work and such just so that when I go to riddle to start my instrument I'm ahead of the game

[Hank]

Grab a safety pilot and go figure out your power settings. You should be able to find a list in an Instrument book or online, should look something like this:

-straight and level, 90 knots, clean

-straight and level, 90 knots, approach flaps

-straight and level, 90 knots, approach flaps and gear down

-500 fpm climb, straight, clean

-500 fpm climb, straight, approach flaps

-500 fpm descent, clean

-500 fpm descent, approach flaps

-500 gpm descent, approach flaps and gear down

Then do all of this making standard rate turns.

Your buddy will be writing numbers and looking outside while you get set up. Then he can ask you to randomly reconfigure, straight and level to descending turn. Practice standard rate turns to a heading, and climb / descend at 500 fpm. When you can do that well, fly some patterns at 90 knots (my pattern speed is 90 mph, final slows from 85 to 70-75 depending on actual weight), hold 90 knots and 300-500 fpm on final until 200agl, then try to land. This is more difficult than it sounds in a Mooney. Low, fast and close, no speed brakes, ineffective flaps; just don't push the yoke forward, don't prang it and don't run off the end.

More good practice in your new Mooney will be slowing from cruise speed to 90 knots. I generally reduce power 4-5 nm out. For more fun, make a normal power on descent at 500 fpm, THEN slow to 90 knots. When you can do this regularly by the desired position, try to slow during the descent and figure out now what you will do.

I'll post a good practice pattern later, climbs, decents, turns, that will make you use these and learn them. But first, you need to figure out what the various power settings are for your plane.

Happy flying, and be safe out there!

[Yooper Rocketman]

Since I am going to riddle next fall I can not technically record any instrument stuff such as a written or hood time. But since I have my own plane I want to use that as my advantage and practice good work and such just so that when I go to riddle to start my instrument I'm ahead of the game

 

Studying the IFR rules in preparation for your written will in no way interfere with what Emery Riddle will teach you.  Developing poor instrument flying skills will set you back though.  You could practice flying at a set altitude +/- 100 feet,, while maintaining a good outside scan (don't stare at the altimeter), every time you fly.  Work on turns from one exact heading to another, again, while staying +/- 100.  A good safety pilot with strong IFR skills could start working ATC communications with you and you working on the read back.  Flying into controlled and busier airspace, with an experienced pilot, will get you more comfortable with talking to controllers while having other work tasks on your plate.  This will get you to a higher level with your multi-task skills, which are a large part of instrument flying.  

 

Hanks comments while I was writing this are good too.

[golfpilot]

Every time you approach an airport fly an approach and when you leave fly the SID. You need to do everything VFR but it'll be good prep. I also suggest getting a flight simulator. FSX or Xplane is great for practicing approaches. Just set the weather to match what minimums are and fly around! 

[Jimhamilton]

I am a graduate and former instructor from Embry Riddle (Prescott Campus).  I was an instructor from 1983 to 85.  I am assuming that your are starting as a new student.  Back in my day when we had students come with previous flight instruction and ratings they were given a check ride to determine their placement in the flight program.  Most of these students were deficient and were required to start in a course lower than what they expected.  If I were you, I would concentrate and practice what you are already rated at (I assume the private pilot level).  Humble yourself and commit yourself to being the best pilot you can be in both book knowledge and skill.  Good luck and enjoy Embry Riddle.

[carusoam]

Where else would you get advice from someone with the exact experience you are trying to obtain?

Go MS!

Thanks JimH,

-a-

[jlunseth]

Why do you need a safety pilot? True, if you go under the hood you must have one and if you want to practice hand flying IFR skills then you need a safety pilot. But a huge part of IFR is mastering the procedures. You can go out and fly VFR with no safety pilot to do that. I like to do a few that way every now and then before adding the complication of a safety pilot and hand flying skills.

[John Pleisse]

Don't waste your time attempting approaches until you can fly a full 15 minute circuit (Hank-above) zero wind, end up where you started. Swiggling like a snake down an ILS course is not how to learn. Have absolute full control of the aircraft and know your numbers cold. I like knocking out the written too, because you'll have to revisit all that info a second time as you move to latter practical training phases.

 

What's wrong with MS Flight SIM while studying for the written? Cheap and effective. You'll fly every damn day at Embry. You'll want to be competent in that very competitive environment when you get there.

[Robert C.]

Listen to Mike Elliot and Jim Hamilton. They know whereof they speak; you'll thank them later.

[FlyDave]

Instructors know within the first 5 minutes whether your flying skills are ready for instrument training or if they need to "send you back down to the minors" (read as embarrassing for YOU!).

If you get in the airplane and you have a good feel for flying (whatever they put you in) a couple of things will happen:

1. You'll impress them a lot more than being just another mediocre "pup" attending Embry Riddle.
2. You'll advance through instrument training faster as a much more proficient and accurate pilot.

Great flying skills and well prepared to start your IFR training the way Embry Riddle wants you to learn it vs. poor flying skills and "some instrument time" - whatever that means....That's a no brainer!

A big part of being a good instrument pilot is doing things automatically - flying the airplane well is the first of these.

[M20F]

The last thing I would add is for most flying under the hood be it straight and level, maneuvers, or doing an approach is easy. Trying to figure out where you are or how to get from A to B is the real challenge.

Most people solo (wich successfully done means you have learned to fly) in 4-10hrs for their PPL but very few get it in 40 or even 60hrs. Flying is easy, it is all the other stuff which is hard.

[Cwalsh7997]

Yeah I just wanted to get the basics down so I'm not lost at riddle

[Hank]

Here is the pattern that I mentioned earlier. Learn your power settings, and practice this until you can do it well, staying within PTS limits for each step.

 

It's pretty fun, but you'll need written power settings and someone beside you playing safety pilot the first few times, until the settings are known and well practiced. THEN you can try under the hood, but do it VFR with a lookout until you are smooth.

IFR Practice.doc

[atn_pilot]

The most important thing is having your basic attitude instrument flying down. If you can do that before showing up at Riddle (why Riddle, BTW?), then you'll be able to focus on learning approaches and holds without having to struggle with the basics simultaneously. Constant airspeed and constant rate descents and climbs, standard rate turns, timed turns, etc.

[Cwalsh7997]

The most important thing is having your basic attitude instrument flying down. If you can do that before showing up at Riddle (why Riddle, BTW?), then you'll be able to focus on learning approaches and holds without having to struggle with the basics simultaneously. Constant airspeed and constant rate descents and climbs, standard rate turns, timed turns, etc.

I know your gonna say why riddle and why go into a lot of student debt and such, but I got almost all of my tuition payed for off scholarships which they give a lot of you actually try in high school as well as the campus was beautiful and they live and breath aviation.

[atn_pilot]

Okay, just curious. As long as you're not piling up debt, nothing wrong with Riddle. Just don't buy into the "Harvard of the skies" hype that they sell.

[Cwalsh7997]

Okay, just curious. As long as you're not piling up debt, nothing wrong with Riddle. Just don't buy into the "Harvard of the skies" hype that they sell.

I'm not, I know and have heard from many airline pilots that it is a reputable school, but I will have to wait and see

[1964-M20E]

My $0.02 fly as much as you can before you go.  If you can get a safety pilot (hopefully someone who is anal about precision) fly under the hood and keep altitude and heading well within the standards track a course intercept a course.  Make sure you can consistently hit the numbers when landing and keep it on the center line, keep your patterns precise.  At some point it will get boring to keep flying like this but work on the precision. 

As for the instrument part get the instrument flying handbook (you can download it for free from the FAA) and start reading it.  Learn the symbols, colors etc. on the charts and plates and know what the mean.  Have you ever watched an aerobatic pilot before a flight.  He looks like he is crazy walking around making all kinds of gyrations but he is not he is fly his routine on the ground before he ever take to the air.

[midlifeflyer]

I join those who warn about developing bad habits. Although I think it counts for no more than 20% of instrument training, the first step in instrument training is morphing the private pilot's emergency instrument reference flight into a sustainable instrument scan and aircraft control regimen. While scans are ultimately personal, good CFIIs are usually essential to their development.

 

My general mantra about the use of a safety pilot is that its is the instrument student's equivalent of solo flight - best done as part of a syllabus to exercise and reinforce what was learned. It is simply not a substitute for training.

 

Unless you are going to grab a local CFII and get "homework assignments" to do with your safety pilot, IMO you are better off doing cross country flights (there's a reason the FAA requires a minimum amount of cross country PIC time to qualify)  to airports you have never been before, utilizing flight following and heading often into Class B and C airports. That builds experience in dealing with the unusual and, more importantly, with ATC.