Update for Mooney WAAS, ADS-B Upgrades for Stec equipped planes

[Robert C.]

Sadly, the email David received and quoted (Jan 28 I think) is the latest news.

the website is verbatim what Stacey Ellis wrote here over a year ago. I.e., an old and never updated post to the website.

[Jeff_S]

I'm actually optimistic about this. It's the first time that I've ever seen anything in an "official" fully-public setting, so at the very least we have something to point to if they don't perform. Granted, we can never force them to do anything, but at least they are openly communicating. My bigger worry is that the new business plans and products don't go as they had hoped, then Mooney may descend back into hibernation mode, which would REALLY put a damper on things.

[Txbyker]

I called Garmin a couple of weeks and ended up calling Paul Keener at Mooney.  He spoke of the delay and told me he would investigate and also told me to continually check the website.  I told him of our desire for information, any information.  I had never seen the FAQ before, perhaps it was there prior.

Russ

[LANCECASPER]

It looks like this new transponder announced today will be the ADS-B in/out solution for G1000 airplanes

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/general-aviation/transponders/gtx-345r/prod140954.html

Mooney G1000.pdf

Edited February 10, 2016 by LANCECASPER

[Robert C.]

Didn't know which thread to necro...so i picked this one by Stacey Ellis. Looks like the test flying program he refers to in the opening e-mail is all but forgotten.

Borrowing from Mooneypilots.com mailing list....Don M. enquired on behalf of someone and got this response (note that without a software update there'll be no WAAS for us STec drivers):

 

From: Paul Kehner [mailto:pkehner@mooney.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 3:02 PM
To: Don Maxwell <dmaxwell@donmaxwell.com>
Subject: RE: [Mapalist] G1000 Software Upgrade

 

Don,

There is no new information from Mooney for any software upgrades. The good news is, Garmin has an ADS-B solution for G1000 owners. Garmin has come out with a new transponder that will bring your aircraft into compliance with the 2020 ADS-B mandate.  Garmin has an STC and the Mooney G1000 systems are on their AML.  We’ve talked to several Mooney owners who are looking at this and it seems to be the over-all best solution.  This new GTX335r or GTX345r will replace your existing transponder and meet the requirement for 2020 ADS-B.  One of the best things about this, it will not require a project from Mooney so as soon as you can get your hands on this transponder, it’s a go.  No need for Mooney approval or Mooney software.  Garmin has got this covered.  Follow this link to find out more info. They have a remote unit that is compatible with the Mooney G1000 systems.  https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/general-aviation/transponders/gtx-345/prod140949.html  Contact your local Garmin dealer for info concerning cost and availability. 

Best regards,

 

 

Paul Kehner

Avionics/Electrical Technical Support

______________________________

Mooney International Corporation

165 Al Mooney Road N., Kerrville, TX 78028 

Phone: 830.792.2056

Fax:     830.257.4635

E-mail: support@mooney.com

www.mooney.com

We value your feedback! Let us know how we’re doing at feedback@mooney.com

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Robert C. said:

Didn't know which thread to necro...so i picked this one by Stacey Ellis. Looks like the test flying program he refers to in the opening e-mail is all but forgotten.

Borrowing from Mooneypilots.com mailing list....Don M. enquired on behalf of someone and got this response (note that without a software update there'll be no WAAS for us STec drivers):

 

From: Paul Kehner [mailto:pkehner@mooney.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 3:02 PM
To: Don Maxwell <dmaxwell@donmaxwell.com>
Subject: RE: [Mapalist] G1000 Software Upgrade

 

Don,

There is no new information from Mooney for any software upgrades. The good news is, Garmin has an ADS-B solution for G1000 owners. Garmin has come out with a new transponder that will bring your aircraft into compliance with the 2020 ADS-B mandate.  Garmin has an STC and the Mooney G1000 systems are on their AML.  We’ve talked to several Mooney owners who are looking at this and it seems to be the over-all best solution.  This new GTX335r or GTX345r will replace your existing transponder and meet the requirement for 2020 ADS-B.  One of the best things about this, it will not require a project from Mooney so as soon as you can get your hands on this transponder, it’s a go.  No need for Mooney approval or Mooney software.  Garmin has got this covered.  Follow this link to find out more info. They have a remote unit that is compatible with the Mooney G1000 systems.  https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/general-aviation/transponders/gtx-345/prod140949.html  Contact your local Garmin dealer for info concerning cost and availability. 

Best regards,

 

 

Paul Kehner

Avionics/Electrical Technical Support

______________________________

Mooney International Corporation

165 Al Mooney Road N., Kerrville, TX 78028 

Phone: 830.792.2056

Fax:     830.257.4635

E-mail: support@mooney.com

www.mooney.com

We value your feedback! Let us know how we’re doing at feedback@mooney.com

 

So, in other words, all of the STEC equipped G1000 Mooneys will never be able to do WAAS approaches, which diminishes their value.

[Godfather]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

 

So, in other words, all of the STEC equipped G1000 Mooneys will never be able to do WAAS approaches, which diminishes their value.

This is the red tape that will continue to make flying more expensive until it ultimately kills GA and all planes diminish in value...

[Txbyker]

If this is new news then Mooney should update their FAQ section.  Else it's not an FAQ and as Trump would say they are "Lyin Mooney".

 

[Jeff_S]

Just because there's no news doesn't mean it's dead. I choose to remain optimistic right up to the point where we have to escalate this to a higher power. The game is afoot...

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, Robert C. said:

One of the best things about this, it will not require a project from Mooney so as soon as you can get your hands on this transponder, it’s a go.  No need for Mooney approval or Mooney software.  Garmin has got this covered. 

If you read between the lines in Mooney's e-mail, it sounds like they are washing their hands of it.

[Danb]

4 hours ago, Jeff_S said:

Just because there's no news doesn't mean it's dead. I choose to remain optimistic right up to the point where we have to escalate this to a higher power. The game is afoot...

Jeff and when that time comes were in the right place to get a bunch of us and hit them hard with a class action suit. They've screwed around long enough, I've had my plane for about 10-11 years now, I was told at purchase by Mooney it was WAAS upgradeable I guess technically correct just 40-60 Grand to swap to a Garmin autopilot and then WAAS

[Jeff_S]

Yes, well, class action lawsuit would be more of a nuclear option I think...I'm not sure how we win there other than perhaps we could get a monetary settlement to help cover the lost value of the plane. I was thinking more along the lines of increased pressure from outside agencies to help pressure the company by promoting the safety aspect of the capabilities.  We all need Mooney to stay in business and make money, otherwise we lose anyway. But we need to keep our voices heard that we are expecting a reasonable answer to this problem.

[Danb]

Yep, get George to put it in aopa

 

[Txbyker]

I think the "certified" program they launched in October is suspect as well.  The program covers maintenance items for G-1000 used Mooney's giving the customers a sense of warranty like that of used BMWs.  They should clarify that the planes are "certified" but not upgradable.  http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/ownership/mooney-presents-certified-pre-owned-airplanes

Russ

[PaulM]

Getting an article in AOPA or Flying, Covering post sales support for all current OEM's is probably the only way to influence the manufacturers..   especially how the integrated avionics software updates and support are now a critically tied to the airframe problem for Garmin & the OEM's.   You wouldn't need to pick on any one vendor, but could editorialize that they wouldn't buy a new airplane from an OEM that hasn't given any post sales software updates for over 8 years in this area. 

A matrix of OEM.. years supported.. hardware supported.. etc.. would make certain OEM's stand out, and others fall behind. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

There are about 60-70 aircraft eligible for G1000 upgrade, right?  Of those, I figure maybe half would actually spend much money to get WAAS. 

How about if you fellows get together and decide what is a price you'd pay.  If 25 or 30 of you as a group declared to Mooney your readiness to upgrade maybe then the company would justify completing the certification.

 

[Txbyker]

21 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

There are about 60-70 aircraft eligible for G1000 upgrade, right?  Of those, I figure maybe half would actually spend much money to get WAAS. 

How about if you fellows get together and decide what is a price you'd pay.  If 25 or 30 of you as a group declared to Mooney your readiness to upgrade maybe then the company would justify completing the certification.

 

I offered that.  A while back Mooney said they would do the WAAS, it wasn't about money it was about safety and they had it covered.  Hopefully, the comments about the Garmin GTX345 are misconstrued due to wording and the project is still a go.  Just wish communications were a bit more crisp.  MAPA seems to be their forum where as Mooneyspace is where a lot of us hang out.

Russ

[KSMooniac]

Keep on them, Russ.  I don't have a dog in the fight, but am quite disappointed with the progress.  I'm sure you and many others are way past that point!  Have you considered calling Paul K to get a clarification straight from his mouth?  I too inferred from his response re: GTX-345 that perhaps they think that is their "out" and they don't need to complete the upgrade program... if that is the case that line of thinking needs to be corrected quickly.

[Danb]

17 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Keep on them, Russ.  I don't have a dog in the fight, but am quite disappointed with the progress.  I'm sure you and many others are way past that point!  Have you considered calling Paul K to get a clarification straight from his mouth?  I too inferred from his response re: GTX-345 that perhaps they think that is their "out" and they don't need to complete the upgrade program... if that is the case that line of thinking needs to be corrected quickly.

I've spoken to Paul numerous times over the last decade. I'm getting tired of lip service, we have a group of airplanes in the $450,000 range new with limited capabilities. The conversion to WAAS is simple and straightforward according to a Garmin engineer I spoke with a couple years ago, but still were the black sheep in the fleet. I understood when they were shutdown with limited assets not getting the job done, since they have launched a certified program, are certifying 2 new frames I assume mostly for China and put another door on the acclaim. I'd rather have the safety of flight versus a second door. I really don't think we will ever get an affordable solution I used to but that ship has sailed. Our planes have already been discounted for the lack of their capability, hopefully there won't be another round of diminished value. At least we have Adsb available maybe that slowed Mooney down although I believe we never were really a priority. Something needs to be done.

[Marauder]

17 minutes ago, KSMooniac said: Keep on them, Russ.  I don't have a dog in the fight, but am quite disappointed with the progress.  I'm sure you and many others are way past that point!  Have you considered calling Paul K to get a clarification straight from his mouth?  I too inferred from his response re: GTX-345 that perhaps they think that is their "out" and they don't need to complete the upgrade program... if that is the case that line of thinking needs to be corrected quickly.

I've spoken to Paul numerous times over the last decade. I'm getting tired of lip service, we have a group of airplanes in the $450,000 range new with limited capabilities. The conversion to WAAS is simple and straightforward according to a Garmin engineer I spoke with a couple years ago, but still were the black sheep in the fleet. I understood when they were shutdown with limited assets not getting the job done, since they have launched a certified program, are certifying 2 new frames I assume mostly for China and put another door on the acclaim. I'd rather have the safety of flight versus a second door. I really don't think we will ever get an affordable solution I used to but that ship has sailed. Our planes have already been discounted for the lack of their capability, hopefully there won't be another round of diminished value. At least we have Adsb available maybe that slowed Mooney down although I believe we never were really a priority. Something needs to be done.

Ok Dan, to help a fellow Mooniac out, I'll buy your plane from you. What'll it take? $100? $150? Since you're a great guy I'm willing to go to $175.

What I feel bad for you guys is you are avionics locked into what you have. I don't think you can rip that G1000 out and make it back into a standard avionic stacked plane, can you?

[Danb]

For you Chris $100, I get the babes though. No I'm sure we can't 

[Txbyker]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

Keep on them, Russ.  I don't have a dog in the fight, but am quite disappointed with the progress.  I'm sure you and many others are way past that point!  Have you considered calling Paul K to get a clarification straight from his mouth?  I too inferred from his response re: GTX-345 that perhaps they think that is their "out" and they don't need to complete the upgrade program... if that is the case that line of thinking needs to be corrected quickly.

Scott, I talked to Paul end of last year and told him I would be willing to help build a consortium of interest to figure out how much $ could be pledged, etc and he said that wasn't required and the Mooney knew about us and wanted to do the project for the fleet to be safe, or something to that effect as my old memory recalls. I explained about all of the Mooneyspacers that expressed their concerns and that they needed to communicate something.  Not sure if it helped but sometime afterward the FAQ appeared on their site.  I know Dave (Deb) speaks to them too as do others here so they are getting if from many angles.  They know were are here and I doubt they just dropped it because of Garmin's release but I could be wrong.  

Russ

[Danb]

Russ, Dave/Deb have done a great job of relating the issues with us for sure. Since there are so many of us and yes safety is an issue you'd think Mooney would keep us apprised of the timeline including any progress. All we get is we know your there and we haven't forgotten you all. REALLY. Communication should be there friend at this point of procrastination. We are all in the dark.

[Txbyker]

I spoke to Paul Kehner at Mooney today to get an update.  From what I gather, the Garmin GTX345 satisfies one of the equations Mooney was shooting for, that being meeting the ADSB mandate for In/Out.  From what I gathered the original project for we G-1000/STEC is now in question in regards to the goal and what can or will be done.  Paul said there is an upcoming discussion with Garmin about WAAS, GTX, etc and said that discussion will help them determine where they go.  From what I can tell the plan we were communicated late last year is now in limbo so to speak until such time they figure out upgrade paths, Garmin's plans etc.

I called Garmin to ask about the GTX345.  What it will do for us today is give us ADSB In/Out.  We will only get traffic and ADSB weather will not work until Mooney updates the software.  Also, we will not get any benefit from the WAAS in the GTX in regards to approaches.

 

Russ

[Robert C.]

Russ,

Thanks for staying on this and he update. Do you think a "letter writing campaign" of some sort might help?

Robert