Specific ADS-B Scenario

[jkhirsch]

I'm opening this theorectical question up for commentary which was prompted by a $6100 530W yellow tag on ebay right now.

 

My inclincation for an ads-b compliant system would be this: (this would also serve as a nice gps upgrade from a 155tso)

 

~7k - 530W (flew 300 hours with a 430 and it was ok)

~4k - GDL 88 (according to garmin)

~3k - GTX 330

 

That puts you at ~14k in parts? Is it worth it, or does the GTN provide additional marginal value?

 

No clue what GTN/Suite would accomplish that same thing, nor the price tag on it.

 

Again, I'm not really doing this I'm just looking for other peoples' thought processes as they would dig into the research.

 

Edit: Apologize if this belongs in the Avionics section. Feel free to relocate it.

[Jeff_S]

Since this is purely hypothetical, I would say go for the gusto and install a GTN 750 instead of the 530W.  There really is superior functionality in the GTN series, with better display for all the cool whiz-bang ADS-B graphic output (e.g. Wx and Tx) and much improved flight planning ability especially for IFR trips (e.g. airways routing).  Sure, you'd spend more money, but as you said, this is hypothetical so why not dream big?

 

Oh gosh, there I go again, acting like a big spender.  Mea culpa!

 

[Marauder]

I'm opening this theorectical question up for commentary which was prompted by a $6100 530W yellow tag on ebay right now.

My inclincation for an ads-b compliant system would be this: (this would also serve as a nice gps upgrade from a 155tso)

~7k - 530W (flew 300 hours with a 430 and it was ok)

~4k - GDL 88 (according to garmin)

~3k - GTX 330

That puts you at ~14k in parts? Is it worth it, or does the GTN provide additional marginal value?

No clue what GTN/Suite would accomplish that same thing, nor the price tag on it.

Again, I'm not really doing this I'm just looking for other peoples' thought processes as they would dig into the research.

Edit: Apologize if this belongs in the Avionics section. Feel free to relocate it.

Owning a GTN and having flown with those who have a GNS, I think the user interface on the GTN is a bit more user friendly. The big advantages, if you want to call them that, are the victor airway capability, touchscreen, foreseeable support life and some advantages of what the GTN will do over the GNS series.

Take a look at the compatible devices page on the Garmin site for the GDL-88 and you will see some enhanced display capabilities that the GTN has over the 430/530 series.

[Marauder]

As for installed prices on the GTN series, I was verbally quoted $13k for another 650. Quite a bit more than what I paid for the first one in 2012. If you went with the 750, I would imagine they would be in the $17k range.

[Mike A]

As for installed prices on the GTN series, I was verbally quoted $13k for another 650. Quite a bit more than what I paid for the first one in 2012. If you went with the 750, I would imagine they would be in the $17k range.

 

+1.  This is about what i was looking at for a 750 when I redid my panel last year.

[jkhirsch]

Is the 650 more of a replacement for the 430? Do you find yourself thinking about the 750?

.....I also think about not having to scroll the alphabet to make inputs.

 

I feel like the size of a 430 with a touchscreen would be pretty practical, unless you just get a pants tent for bigger screens.

 

I think it's one of those deals where once I go to spend the money...I'll say why bother being cheap about it.

 

Since I've already gotten out of scope, anyone have experience with the entire flight deck set up?

 

How do those all play together? What kind of absurd cost are you talking about then?

[Mike A]

I'd do the 430W with the Garmin Flightstream 210 instead of the 650.

 

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/avionics-safety/sat-comm/flight-stream-110-210/prod153681.html

[ArtVandelay]

I'd do the 430W with the Garmin Flightstream 210 instead of the 650.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/avionics-safety/sat-comm/flight-stream-110-210/prod153681.html

Why do a new install with old technology, the installation costs are the same?

For an extra couple of AMUs you get current technology, and adding flight stream gives you the big screen view, best compromise if money is a consideration

[ArtVandelay]

Is the 650 more of a replacement for the 430? Do you find yourself thinking about the 750?

.....I also think about not having to scroll the alphabet to make inputs.

I feel like the size of a 430 with a touchscreen would be pretty practical, unless you just get a pants tent for bigger screens.

I think it's one of those deals where once I go to spend the money...I'll say why bother being cheap about it.

Since I've already gotten out of scope, anyone have experience with the entire flight deck set up?

How do those all play together? What kind of absurd cost are you talking about then?

The 650 screen is both higher resolution and bigger than 430.

You can use knobs just like 430 if you don't like the sliding alphabet method.

For $20K, you should be able to get 650, 88, 210, installed. That gives you ADSB, wx, traffic, on your iPad as well, plus WAAS ability

[John Pleisse]

I would get the G530W as you have pursued, but I would forgo the GDL-88 and spend the extra $3k on getting the ES transponder. The $3k is the GTX-330 non-cert price for Experimentals. Dealers want $4,400 for them certified + $1,200 for the ES, then $500-$700 for the install.

 

I only offer this because The GDL-88 will likely be surpassed by many great ADS-B solutions later, Garmin or other. Also, Garmin is 100% proprietary with their offerings. Getting the ES will give you the traffic targets and will light up your own hockey puck for use with a Stratus/I-Pad combo (temporary for now) until a ga-zillion offerings start showing up in the next two years. With the ES...you are compliant now and give yourself options later and your TIS targets are going to show up on that 530W screen.

 

One question, the 530 screen meets ADS-B screen size compliance under the mandate, right? It should. I would also suggest if you d-o end up getting the GDL-88, have your avionics guys make and plumb harnessing (terminated of course) for any future items to be installed in the tail cone, that way your interior won't have to be ripped out twice. The number one interior killer (IMO) is avionics guys.

[kmyfm20s]

I think Flightstream and an IPad will add a lot of longevity to those that already have a GNS installed. I would rather have the GTN 650 than the GNS 530 but you would have to pencil out the difference in cost. I have ordered my Flightstream and look forward to getting it installed and trying it out.

[jkhirsch]

What's the difference between the flight stream and the GDL 39? At a very brief glance they look strikingly similar.

 

You're absolutely right about that stupid quote I put on the 330, I have full intentions of getting the 330ES and didn't correctly articulate that.

 

I'm not totally sold on the idea of using the peripheral equipment, I hate yoke mount stuff. I know it's cheaper and maybe even illogical but I'd rather it be a part of the plane. I want to get in and turn it on, not drag everything around on each end of the trip, 1 switch for me please, Avionics Master. I know it'll be taking a switch to my wallet, but those are my personal preferences.

 

In my personal life I'm honestly kind of a technology dinosaur, I don't have an ipad. I do have a surface, but I don't really want that stuff in my plane. I like task driven devices over multi-tasking devices, I know it's backwards, but sometimes it's simpler.

 

I use the golfGPS as an example, I don't want to run my cell down everytime I hit the links, give me a dedicated golf gps...or clearly a laser rangefinder.

 

One of the things I learned from Cisco is to consider Scalability/Adaptability, if I buy this how does it limit what I can do in the future.

[TWinter]

I have a 750 and am scheduled for a GDL-88 install next week...still on the fence about the Flightstream. Main reason I really like Foreflight on my mini in addition to the 750 .. I fly VFR and am not in a huge hurry for my IFR ticket so. While Flightstream is very cool and allows to upload and then duplicates what my 750 shows I'm not so sure I'll reap all the benefits of it right now for the 1k cost.

 

As I understand it I would just be getting another big screen of what my 750 is displaying since you have to use the Garmin Pilot App. Somebody please correct me if I'm understanding the Flightstream wrong.

 

Your GDL 88 installed scenario at $4K looks slightly low, I need to double check on my price quote. I was quoted $6K for GDL-88 install with top and bottom antenna and I aleady have the 750 and remote transponder? Maruader's prices look right on par for the 650 and 750.

 

I think if you can swing a GTN650 with GDL-88 that's the best bet. There are lots of flavors out there for the "in" and "out" as separate players, but I would go for the 650 for simplicity and screen management and then finish the puzzle from there. I have my 750 for about a year and put off the GDL88 until the checkbook fattened up a bit to finish with the GDL-88.

 

All hypothetical of course

[jkhirsch]

All else aside you like the 750 in favor of the 650 though? It literally must just come down to shelling out for the bigger screen, specs are identical from garmin.

 

I was parts only on the GDL price.

 

I guess without re-reading I'm still unclear on whether the 330ES completely satisfies the In/Out capabilities.

 

It's hard to get that excited about it when you know you aren't going to spend the money tomorrow.

[Marauder]

Is the 650 more of a replacement for the 430?

More or less, yes. It has features that the GNS doesn't have, like the ability to control my transponder. If you have either the 330 or 327 transponder, the GTN will allow you to control it or you could use the keys on the transponder.

Do you find yourself thinking about the 750?

.....I also think about not having to scroll the alphabet to make inputs.

In my case no. I have the Aspen 2000 and my output is on the Aspen MFD. If I went with a single PFD, I would have seriously considered the 750. As for the key entry, it is a little more work to enter stuff, but quite honestly with the Flightstream stuff, you will come to the airport with your flight plan loaded on the Garmin Pilot and download it to the navigator.

I feel like the size of a 430 with a touchscreen would be pretty practical, unless you just get a pants tent for bigger screens.

It is. But I'd consider the 750 if you were also interested in remote boxes for your audio panel and transponder. Again a concern over a single point of failure, but would free up real estate if you needed it.

I think it's one of those deals where once I go to spend the money...I'll say why bother being cheap about it.

Since I've already gotten out of scope, anyone have experience with the entire flight deck set up?

Don Kaye has the entire Garmin suite.

How do those all play together? What kind of absurd cost are you talking about then?

All the Garmin stuff plays well together but you need to continue to buy Garmin to make that happen. At some point, the open hierarchy guys will crack the Garmin code or Garmin will wake up and realize they have a market potential to sell idiots like me a GDL that will work with my Aspens.

John is right, I would wait on the ADS-B stuff.

What's the difference between the flight stream and the GDL 39? At a very brief glance they look strikingly similar.

The Flightstream 200 product eliminates the need for the 39. It has built in WiFi and will share its AHRS with Garmin Pilot. It also is the interface between the navigator and the iPad.

You're absolutely right about that stupid quote I put on the 330, I have full intentions of getting the 330ES and didn't correctly articulate that.

I'm not totally sold on the idea of using the peripheral equipment, I hate yoke mount stuff. I know it's cheaper and maybe even illogical but I'd rather it be a part of the plane. I want to get in and turn it on, not drag everything around on each end of the trip, 1 switch for me please, Avionics Master. I know it'll be taking a switch to my wallet, but those are my personal preferences.

Whether you are talking Aspen Connected Pilot or Garmin's Connext (Flightstream), the integrated EFB will be part of our future. Much easier to load up everything on the EFB and then downloading it to the navigator. The benefit is not sitting there typing in a 5 leg flight plan with the engine running. The Flightstream product will allow any changes on the navigator to be automatically uploaded to the iPad.

In my personal life I'm honestly kind of a technology dinosaur, I don't have an ipad. I do have a surface, but I don't really want that stuff in my plane. I like task driven devices over multi-tasking devices, I know it's backwards, but sometimes it's simpler.

I use the golfGPS as an example, I don't want to run my cell down everytime I hit the links, give me a dedicated golf gps...or clearly a laser rangefinder.

I tried answering your questions above.

[jkhirsch]

You make a good point on the engine running paradigm. That's a good perspective, get all of your flight planning truly done before you get in the plane.

 

Apparently I understand now that the FlightSteam has 2 way communication abilities, whereas the GDL39 is one-way into a device?

 

In a sense I guess the GDL 39 is being replaced by the flight stream? Minus the GDL 39 is WAAS antenna?

 

That's good insight Mo.

[Bob_Belville]

As previously mentioned, I have had a GTN 750 and a GDL 88 for 2 years. ISTM, these boxes are made for each other in that the 750 screen is big enough to display NEXRAD and traffic. The touch screen makes it easily to pan ahead and zoom in/out to get a good picture to what the weather is hundreds of miles ahead. When traffic on the moving map gets heavy or close I can click a couple of times and get the dedicated traffic screen for better identification of who the traffic is and what they're doing.

[NotarPilot]

Having used the GTN 650 I would highly encourage you to find one you can play with to determine if you think it's worth the money. Personally I did not like the way they designed the "keyboard" for lack of a better word, when inputting flight plans. The reason is screen real estate. I don't think this is a problem on the 750 though as it has a bigger screen and hence, full QWERTY keyboard. However, I didn't find the inputting much faster on the 650 versus the knob turning of the 430 and 530s we have become accustomed to. Personally I wouldn't spend the money and I plan to ad the FlightStream 210 in the coming months.

I find my little 430s with GPSS linked to the AP work just fine for me and I find no need to spend big money for such an upgrade.

[rainman]

As a practical matter, get the larger screen 750 if you intend to see ADS-B weather/traffic on the screen. I have a small screen 430W and it's too small so I use XM weather on my 696.

[wishboneash]

Having used the GTN 650 I would highly encourage you to find one you can play with to determine if you think it's worth the money. Personally I did not like the way they designed the "keyboard" for lack of a better word, when inputting flight plans. The reason is screen real estate. I don't think this is a problem on the 750 though as it has a bigger screen and hence, full QWERTY keyboard. However, I didn't find the inputting much faster on the 650 versus the knob turning of the 430 and 530s we have become accustomed to. Personally I wouldn't spend the money and I plan to ad the FlightStream 210 in the coming months.

I find my little 430s with GPSS linked to the AP work just fine for me and I find no need to spend big money for such an upgrade.

 

I wouldn't give up the 650 for the 430. I can do things much faster on the 650 even though I got fairly proficient with the 430 after a few months. I agree the keyboard can be a bit of a pain compared to the 750, but everything else is superior to the 430 (airways, changing the flight plan, and access to info is quite a bit better). Also the GDL-88 interface back to the 650 I heard is better compared to the 430 from what I heard (I got the GDL-88 after I had installed the 650, so I don't know first hand).

[carusoam]

The good news...

Bigger is better...

Newer is better...

Installed is better...

Integrated with everything including an iPad is better...

Expect a 15 year lifespan... (If you are lucky)

Know there is always going to be risk that is hard to mitigate...

Ask the G1000 folks....

Still too much financial risk for me.

Adding WAAS, ADSB out and GPSS are nice to have for now until 2010...

(1) Pick your 'investment' size and go with it...?

(2) Pick your dream panel from those pictured around here...?

(3) No two pilots here are alike.

(4) 'worth it' is something only you can answer for yourself.

I like the question...

It is as appropriate to an M20C as it is to an M20R...

(5) if you plan to use your electronics for the next 15 years... It is possibly worth it.

(6) if you use your electronics for the next 15 years, you got your money's worth...!

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

You make a good point on the engine running paradigm. That's a good perspective, get all of your flight planning truly done before you get in the plane.

Apparently I understand now that the FlightSteam has 2 way communication abilities, whereas the GDL39 is one-way into a device?

In a sense I guess the GDL 39 is being replaced by the flight stream? Minus the GDL 39 is WAAS antenna?

That's good insight Mo.

The 39 is purely a portable device designed to send ADS-B "in" information to the Garmin Pilot app. It won't interface with the panel mounted stuff unless it is a Garmin portable, like a 796, mounted in something like an Air Gizmo. The newer 39 has an AHRS.

The Flightstream product is capable of bilateral communication between certified boxes and the portable Garmin app. It will provide AHRS to the Garmin app. So, with a GDL-88 it will send weather to the app as well as coordinate flight plan information between the app and the certified navigator.

If you don't have one of the EFB apps (Garmin Pilot, WingX, ForeFlight, etc.) you will be surprised at the advantages of using them. If I file an IFR flight plan on Garmin Pilot and ATC changes it, I get the amended plan and can accept it into the EFB. With the Flightstream product I would be able to upload it to the plane's navigator.

BTW - I misspoke earlier. Garmin uses Bluetooth for communication while the Aspen Connected Pilot product uses WiFi.

Check out this video:

http://youtu.be/f-zWyCt1tv4

[Marauder]

As previously mentioned, I have had a GTN 750 and a GDL 88 for 2 years. ISTM, these boxes are made for each other in that the 750 screen is big enough to display NEXRAD and traffic. The touch screen makes it easily to pan ahead and zoom in/out to get a good picture to what the weather is hundreds of miles ahead. When traffic on the moving map gets heavy or close I can click a couple of times and get the dedicated traffic screen for better identification of who the traffic is and what they're doing.

Time to get that Flightstream product buddy...

[carusoam]

Big G has nice integration within it's family...

From IPad at home to in the cockpit with the GTNs to the flight displays.....

Pretty compelling if the Dollars are not too critical.

Where is Dr. G lately?

Best regards,

-a-

[HRM]

I'm opening this theorectical question up for commentary which was prompted by a $6100 530W yellow tag on ebay right now.

 

Again, I'm not really doing this I'm just looking for other peoples' thought processes as they would dig into the research.

 

Patience grasshopper, patience. Prices will fall dramatically in the next few years, remember, Lynx is coming.