Refurbished M20J

[Piloto]

Just out of curiosity, what could one expect to pay for a new interior by a reputable outfit? Our '83 J is looking a little ragged these days.

 

Probably more than a chin lift or a liposuction or a nose job or hair transplant. What is more important a saggy looking plane or a saggy looking pilot/passenger?. Check with your wife before deciding.

 

José

[flyboy0681]

Probably more than a chin lift or a liposuction or a nose job or hair transplant. What is more important a saggy looking plane or a saggy looking pilot/passenger?. Check with your wife before deciding.

 

José

 

I think she'd rather have granite.

[PTK]

Just out of curiosity, what could one expect to pay for a new interior by a reputable outfit? Our '83 J is looking a little ragged these days.

In the range of 2300 to 2700$, depending on the leather you select and carpeting. Assuming also you remove and reinstall your plastics and they are refinished, i.e.SEM. If you want to cover the plastics instead of refinishing them, add a little. Certainly under 3000$. I wouldn't cover them and add weight. Ymmv.

[PTK]

PTK, yu are taking a simple view of aluminum fatigue. As long as you don't exceed the elastic limit the metal has an infinite fatigue life. Once you exceed the elastic limit it takes a permanent deformation. Aluminum fails slowly if repeatedly loaded up to the elastic limit. But it forms cracks and gives much advanced warning. But for all practical purposes, a Mooney wing spar has a fatigue life limit over 100,000 hours. The steel cage even longer.

Byron, I'm not sure what you mean by a "simple view." I was addressing someone's idea of zeroing the airframe. It can't be done due to reasons I mentioned.

Fact is fatigue is the greatest concern! By far, fatigue holds the highest percentage of the types of failures of aluminum airframes. Corrosion comes at a distant 4 times less. Hence market values reflect this reality.

If you mean that a fatigue crack once initiated will further propagate by repeated cycles of stress, yes we agree. But it will reach a critical point where the remaining material cannot sustain the applied stress. The component will fail and fail suddenly. I suppose we can X-ray airframes but how feasible is this in GA? I don't know but assume may be cost prohibitive. Another condition monitor?!

Regarding your 100,000 hour spar fatigue life, is this a theoretical extrapolation for academic discussion?

I'd like to read up on it purely for self enrichment purposes!

Can you direct me to some literature?

[urbanti]

A potential challenge with this business model is that many if not most new C172s,and some SR22s,are bought by businesses who want a zero-time airplane either for flight instruction (172) or rental/charter (SRXX), I think its safe to assume that few flight schools are going to buy Mooneys for flight instruction as they tend to fly old Arrows, and I think its safe to assume that few charter/air taxi/rental operations are going to buy a Mooney as its interior dimensions aren't optimal.

Of the demographic of very-well-off buyers of new SRXXs for personal use, many are younger, highly educated professionals who 1) are shopping for new technology; 2) prioritize ballistic parachutes as a necessity; and 3) may not appreciate the whole Mooney niche/cult thing. I don't see you siphoning off a lot of Cirrus buyers without a parachute STC at a minimum.

So, if you eliminate business purchasers and Palo Alto software co. execs from the pool of potential buyers, I think you are looking at a very narrow market segmet of pilots who have already demonstrated that they are very price-point conscious....

best

Tim

[aviatoreb]

This airplane refurb seems relevant to this discussion:

http://redhawk.redbirdflight.com

 

They take a solid basic 172 airframe, strip it to metal.  Redo everything.  New interior.  All new avionics including the full works of engine monitor, gtn650, g500, and also a diesel engine.

 

It costs 209k for all the parts and the service.  I would think the complexity of the job would be comparable for a M20J.  So with a Lycoming 360 overhaul instead of a brand new diesel I would think that the service could be done for $130-150 instead of $209?

 

-Or-  This would garner a huge response I bet - develop the STC for a diesel conversion on the M20J/M20K airframe and bundle it with the complete airframe/avionics refurb.  It would be a bigger engine than that on the redbird: probably 180 or 200hp or 210hp turbo diesel instead of 135hp and that would cost more....but not hugely more.  So what if for $225-250 a complete overhaul of the M20J/K including a new fadec turbo diesel.  And it would be a 175TAS airplane on 7-8gph.  Can you imagine the range on long range tanks?

[carusoam]

Nice find Erik.

That is essentially what we are talking about, with the basic difference...

Their market is training. Deliver a worn out C172 + $209k

Our market is fast and efficient. Deliver a worn out M20J + $209k?

How does that sound?

Best regards,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

Unfortunately there isn't a ~200 HP diesel engine out there yet.

[aviatoreb]

Nice find Erik.

That is essentially what we are talking about, with the basic difference...

Their market is training. Deliver a worn out C172 + $209k

Our market is fast and efficient. Deliver a worn out M20J + $209k?

How does that sound?

Best regards,

-a-

 

Yes - the airplanes are different, but the man hours required to refurb a 172 from bare bones and the man hours to refurb a M20 from bare bones, etc must be comparable at least in the ball park.

[aviatoreb]

Unfortunately there isn't a ~200 HP diesel engine out there yet.

 

How about 300hp?

[aviatoreb]

Anyway - separate from a diesel upgrade - just putting a new overhaul engine - that redhawk gives the idea of cost - so as I said, I bet the project would be 130-150 if it was just including overhaul current engine rather than put a diesel.

 

But I think put a diesel and it would be so popular there would be a two year line waiting to get into that shop.

[KSMooniac]

How about 300hp?

 

Those don't exist either, yet, and I would expect to see them before something in the 200 hp class for planes like a typical Mooney.  If there was ever an economic case to be made for a diesel conversion, it would be in the 300-350 hp range for the "working" GA planes in the fleet.  I'm thinking the big piston twins that still carry freight & pax every day, or business folks.  Those are the major consumers of 100LL, and would stand to benefit the most from an economic switch to Jet A on existing airframes, especially since there are no current planes in production like a Cessna 421 or Piper Navajo, for example, so they can't be easily replaced either.

[mooniac15u]

http://www.smaengines.com/spip.php?rubrique68&lang=en

[KSMooniac]

I don't believe anyone is currently flying the SMA SR305-230 yet, but I think Cessna is trying to get it into their 182 but having issues.  It is intriguing for us, except for one minor problem...the empty weight (455 lbs) is about 100 lbs more than an IO-360 so it wouldn't be a simple retrofit for a 4 cylinder Mooney, and of course it doesn't have enough power to replace a 6 cylinder Lyc/Continental in a long body Mooney either.  

 

It's also too bad the critical altitude is only 10,000 feet...if I were to lug around a turbo system, especially on a heavy diesel, I'd really want full power well into the upper teens!

 

EDIT:  latest on the T182T:  http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/pistons/diesel-cessna-skylane-delayed-until-2015

[Piloto]

When you look at small fields with runways shorter than 3,000 feet you will notice that there is no jet fuel but AVGAS. Which makes sense since jet planes do not land on short runways like Mooneys or C172s, less likely on grass strips. A jet fuel Mooney will be limited to refuel where the jets do. Although jet fuel is common around, MOGAS is even more common, there are cars everywhere.

 

José

[mooniac15u]

I don't believe anyone is currently flying the SMA SR305-230 yet, but I think Cessna is trying to get it into their 182 but having issues.  It is intriguing for us, except for one minor problem...the empty weight (455 lbs) is about 100 lbs more than an IO-360 so it wouldn't be a simple retrofit for a 4 cylinder Mooney, and of course it doesn't have enough power to replace a 6 cylinder Lyc/Continental in a long body Mooney either.  

 

It's also too bad the critical altitude is only 10,000 feet...if I were to lug around a turbo system, especially on a heavy diesel, I'd really want full power well into the upper teens!

 

EDIT:  latest on the T182T:  http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/pistons/diesel-cessna-skylane-delayed-until-2015

 

I didn't say it would fit in a Mooney.  The point is that they do exist in the 200HP arena.  As the technology matures we may see a smaller, lighter option.

[KSMooniac]

In my mind 230 HP was far enough away from 200... truth be told, though, 230 hp in a J/K airframe would be perfect IMO, except for all of that extra weight of the SMA product.  Unfortunately I don't think diesels will ever be close to avgas engines in weight, and only make economic sense if you can't get reasonably priced 100LL or whatever replaces it down the road.  A good turbo-normalized avgas engine will have fuel specifics that are very, very close to these diesels, so I think that makes more sense for most owners in the US.  

[carusoam]

We get Jet fuel at my local airport because a few helicopters use it as well...

Really long and really short runways have it...

Best regards,

-a-

[DaV8or]

You know, the Mooney airframe is chromoly steel, not aluminum. 

 

Really?? Tell that to my wings and emppenage. They have been deluded into thinking they are aluminum. Also, you might want to notify some of the poor guys on this forum who are struggling with aluminum corrosion and cracks that they don't really matter because they clearly aren't part of the airframe.

[BigTex]

Really?? Tell that to my wings and emppenage. They have been deluded into thinking they are aluminum. Also, you might want to notify some of the poor guys on this forum who are struggling with aluminum corrosion and cracks that they don't really matter because they clearly aren't part of the airframe.

 

 I think Aviatorreb was referring to the roll cage, not the rest of the airframe.

[aviatoreb]

 I think Aviatorreb was referring to the roll cage, not the rest of the airframe.

 

For sure - lots of Aluminum in an M20 as well.  The core - the roll cage frame is built like an old school bicycle of chromoly tubes welded together.

[DaV8or]

I didn't say it would fit in a Mooney.  The point is that they do exist in the 200HP arena.  As the technology matures we may see a smaller, lighter option.

 

I seriously doubt the technology is going to mature. They sunk a ton of money into this one as have other companies and not enough people are buying them. I doubt too many people are going to dump even more money at the problem when there is no profit to be had.

[DaV8or]

 I think Aviatorreb was referring to the roll cage, not the rest of the airframe.

 

I suppose he was, but that is not the airframe. It is the collective of parts that include, but not limited to the steel cage, that make the airframe. The large majority of these parts are aluminum.

[mooniac15u]

I seriously doubt the technology is going to mature. They sunk a ton of money into this one as have other companies and not enough people are buying them. I doubt too many people are going to dump even more money at the problem when there is no profit to be had.

The technology will improve as technology always does in spite of those who claim it won't.

20 years ago diesel engines weren't really viable in the automotive industry either.

[PTK]

For sure - lots of Aluminum in an M20 as well. The core - the roll cage frame is built like an old school bicycle of chromoly tubes welded together.

It seems to me that if you're going to use terms like "core" you cannot only consider the roll cage.

There is a much bigger component to our Mooney airframe than chromoly. It is aluminum and it's indeed structural. Having no endurance limit it fails suddenly, at any stress and number of cycles.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/13806-refurbished-m20j/?p=180923