WAAS update for 2005-6,-7 Mooneys

[Ftlausa]

It would be nice if they would release some information regarding anticipated pricing.  I am interested in moving up to an Ovation GX, but the uncertainty of the WAAS upgrade cost is keeping me on the sidelines since I would need to purchase in the 05/06 time frame to meet my budget.  There are quite a few for sale, but without knowing what the upgrade cost is going to be, I don't feel comfortable buying.   

[kmyfm20s]

It would be nice if they would release some information regarding anticipated pricing.  I am interested in moving up to an Ovation GX, but the uncertainty of the WAAS upgrade cost is keeping me on the sidelines since I would need to purchase in the 05/06 time frame to meet my budget.  There are quite a few for sale, but without knowing what the upgrade cost is going to be, I don't feel comfortable buying.   

 

That was the issue for me when I was buying my plane and eneded up going with an older S with a glass panel and WAAS.  For those that don't think WAAS is that important there where 3200 new approaches added last year to airport that otherwise did have them.

[Jeff_S]

Well, the old cost was about $70K from what I've been told, which was because it was a total system swap out. They actually just replaced the GPS units, both MFD and PFD, and the autopilot servos for the GFC700 units.  You were essentially getting a new G1000 unit which matched the "then" current production systems.  If they follow through on what they've said they would do, the plan is to upgrade the GPS and software to WAAS so it integrates with the existing S-TEC 55X autopilot.  The STEC is perfectly WAAS compatible because I had one in my J with the 480 and it worked great. So doing all that should come in substantially less expensive than before, but I agree it would be good if Mooney would at least give us a ballpark.  I've got my eye on the $30K mark to get WAAS and full ADS-B capability. That would be reasonable I believe.

[mike_elliott]

Chris Benson, who was the Garmin OEM rep for Mooney, is apparently no longer with Garmin. I don't know just how much of a monkey wrench this will put into the project, hopefully not much of a setback.

[Ftlausa]

I believe the current G1000 waas upgrade in other aircraft is around $32,000. So, i have to think that the charge for this is going to be more.

[Txbyker]

Ok its third quarter, where's my WAAS update?

Russ

[Deb]

Ok its third quarter, where's my WAAS update?

Russ

Russ,

Jerry Chen, Tom Bowen and Jared Absher are scheduled to attend the Mooney Summit III in Panama City Beach October 1-4, 2015. We will ask them about that (including projected pricing), as well as an integrated ADS-B -in/-out solution for the G1000.

[Txbyker]

Just wondering if there was any mention of this at the Mooney Summit.  If so, would appreciate an update.

Thanks,

Russ

[Jeff_S]

Hi Russ,

Unfortunately, Tom Bowen wasn't able to make it, but we talked a lot about it with both Jared and Jerry. David (aka Deb) had most of the discussions, but I'll share what we found out. He can fill in the blanks or correct me where I got it wrong.

Notwithstanding the conflicting stories (where Jerry was non-committal, but Jared...who got his info from Tom...was more definite) here is where things stand:

1) There is already a technical path to upgrade the systems to WAAS. This seems to be decided upon and even tested out, and requires swapping out antennas and some other components. The hold-up here is that Mooney is working with Garmin to try to bring the cost down. Note that this is NOT the full WAAS/GFC700 upgrade which some folks did a few years ago. This is just to upgrade the GPS systems to support WAAS.

2) Once the WAAS capability is added, then it's merely swapping out the GTX33S transponder for an -ES model (I think I got those labels right) to add ADS-B "Out". ADS-B "In" is a longer story, and one that seems to require Garmin getting off their butts and certifying the GDL-88 for the G1000, which supposedly isn't going to happen until 2017.

3) Finally, the S-TEC 55X compatibility with the WAAS system, and that is where the differences arose between what Jared/Tom said and what Jerry said. According to Jared/Tom, they have the project equipment identified and the project is supposed to start now in January next year.  They expect it to take a couple of months.

So if #3 above holds true, and Mooney/Garmin can come to some resolution for #1, then by 2nd Quarter of next year we should have some solution that gets us the bulk of what we want.  Beyond this, I know Dave is taking a much more active part in harassing the factory and trying to get some answers, and there may come a time when we all have to band together and force the issue a bit. We shall see...

[Deb]

As Jeff said, Tom Bowen unfortunately was unable to attend. Jared Absher, Mooney's Director of Marketing and Sales announced that the WAAS update project for the STEC G1000 Mooneys is due to start in January 2016.

As we understand the situation, the type certificates for the G1000 Mooneys encompass the non-WAAS STEC and GFC 700 autopilot airframes, and the WAAS G1000 GFC 700 equipped aircraft. The problem is that Mooney needs to certify the STEC autopilot with a WAAS G1000 system (obviously without the Garmin GFC 700 autopilot.) We believe other manufacturers have certified the STEC autopilot with a WAAS G1000, so this would be largely a matter of validating (test flying) the software in a WAAS G1000 Mooney equipped with an STEC autopilot.

A big issue is cost. The two GPS receivers need to be upgraded to WAAS. As a reference, Garmin quotes a list price of ~$3,500 to upgrade a 430 to a 430W. In addition, the 2 GPS antennas (antennae?) and cabling also need to be replaced. The issue is how much is Garmin going to charge Mooney (or us) for the WAAS software. An additional cost would be Mooney's expense in test flying the software and having it certified by the FAA. 

As far as ADS-B out is concerned, the new Mooneys are shipping with Mooney software version 0401.34, and a GTX 33ES transponder which is ADS-B out compatible. This is a 1090 MHz out solution only. This does not provide UAT 978 MHz ADS-B in or out.

A fully integrated ADS-B out and in solution from Garmin comes in the GDL 88 which will display ADS-B weather and traffic on the G1000. As Jeff said, Mooney (as well as other manufacturers) need to work with Garmin on this. Although Garmin announced this in Flying Magazine earlier this year http://www.flyingmag.com/avionics-gear/instrumentaccessories/ads-b-solution-now-compatible-garmins-g1000, they have indicated that they expect this to be available in 2017. The GDL 88 may be available with its own (independent) WAAS position source (this is unclear); it currently requires a WAAS position source. This is only a 978 MHz UAT system. For flights FL 180 and above, a 1090 ES transponder is still needed.

For existing WAAS GFC 700 G1000 Mooneys, the new software (v0401.34) should work. (Mooney has yet to test it in an existing airframe, but Garmin says it will work. For that matter, it should also work in the non-WAAS G1000 airframes.) Upgrading the transponder to a GTX 33ES should only cost $1200 plus installation and validation. Of course Mooney needs to get this certified.

There is good news with respect to the v0401.34 software. It is Gamin GDU version 14.02 (the October 2008 update was v9.03.) Mike Elliott is currently teaching in one of these Mooneys. He says that It supports engine data logging, random holds, and shows on the moving map where a selected altitude will be reached (in VNAV mode) based on groundspeed and vertical speed; this last feature requires WAAS (probably vertical WAAS.) Hopefully Mooney will certify this version of the software for existing airframes soon, and release it via a Service Bulletin.

[Mark89114]

Deb,

as you said the big issue is cost but I think you are missing a zero on your costs.  I was looking at a Mooney with G1000 and it had been upgraded in the past with the GFC700 but the G1000 boxes required new GPS WAAS receivers and those alone were over $20,000 plus installation, antenas, cabling, etc.  I have since forgotten the rest of the details but needless to say I moved onto something else.  Good luck. 

[Deb]

Deb,

as you said the big issue is cost but I think you are missing a zero on your costs.  I was looking at a Mooney with G1000 and it had been upgraded in the past with the GFC700 but the G1000 boxes required new GPS WAAS receivers and those alone were over $20,000 plus installation, antenas, cabling, etc.  I have since forgotten the rest of the details but needless to say I moved onto something else.  Good luck. 

We do not know what Mooney or Garmin intend to charge for the upgrade. We were just indicating what the cost is to upgrade a 430 to a 430W. We do not know whether we could send in the GIA 63 and have Garmin upgrade it to a GIA 63W. If the GIAs needed to be replaced, that would obviously be more costly. This was just used as a point of reference. The  430 is closely related to the GIA 63, according to Garmin.

[Txbyker]

Thanks so much Jeff, Deb (David).  I appreciate the information.

Russ