Oil analysis

[ArtVandelay]

Oil analysis in itself is not a reason to tear down an engine, several showing a trend would definitely deserve a bore scope inspection and further attention, it's a symptom, more data about condition of your airplane can't be a bad thing

[aaronk25]

So lycoming gave me a poorly manufactured camshaft that lasted 2 years and 400 hours and my oil analysis went from 38ppm steel to 64ppm. My issue with oil analysis is was 64ppm bad? A lot of engines run higher than that continuously.

My filter showed me almost undetectable slivers in it.....so we started looking.

I did oil analysis constantly, now I'm not sure I will.

[jetdriven]

This engine was running great, just ticking a little. Two other shops had messed with it and billed him, but nobody looked at this. .

[aaronk25]

This engine was running great, just ticking a little. Two other shops had messed with it and billed him, but nobody looked at this. .image.jpg

Wonder what the oil analysis was at?. I'm not convinced oil analysis will predict a in flight engine failure...if I could find a shop that would do a test for $10 Id probably do it then.

Byron,

Your oil analysis getting better on that factory motor yet?

[bonal]

God that looks awful you sure that wasn't just sitting under a drill press.

[carusoam]

That pilot has to rework his W&B every oil change.

[Ned Gravel]

Thanks Eldon,

That is the lab we've been using since they took over the previous one. Their results are sporadic at best, so I'm looking for opinions on labs stateside.

Maybe I have to send Ned over to audit their process, Ned?

Clarence

 

Clarence:

 

Might be better to speak to Jeff or Glenna Pike at the ALS lab in Waterloo.  Their contact details are in the attached scope of accreditation.  Burlington's scope does not contain any more oil analysis capability than the Waterloo lab.  If Waterloo is collecting the samples to send to Burlington, your contact is Waterloo and Jeff/Glenna will work to ensure your needs are met.

 

As to "assessing" them, it has been a long time since I led a team into either lab.  Note that the ALS lab in Edmonton, cited by Eldon, does not have much in accredited capacity for oil other than PCB and some araclors - but you can bet they are doing the testing (living in the middle of the oil patch).  In fact all three labs are providing test results for these tests which are not accredited, probably because the market is not demanding accreditation for these tests.  

 

If you want to find an accredited lab that does the tests you seek, you can search for "oil" as a testing parameter on http://67.22.232.63/search.php?wId=s, which is CALA's listing of scopes of accredited labs.  If you want to find a US lab (say close to the border in Buffalo) then have a look at either http://www.a2la.org/dirsearchnew/newsearch.cfm or http://l-a-b.com/directory-accredited-labs/.  There may be a lab there actually accredited for the type of test you seek.

 

Disclaimer:  I spent 10 years as the Quality Manager for CALA.  I am currently the Chair of the Policy Expert Committee for L-A-B and I am one of the trainers for A2LA.   So I am biased in my recommendations to you.

3149 ALS Waterloo.pdf

[Guest]

This engine was running great, just ticking a little. Two other shops had messed with it and billed him, but nobody looked at this. .image.jpg

That's about the worst filter I've seen. Did you open the engine to find the cause?

Way back FAA issued AD 80-04-03R2 against Lycoming 76 series engines, one requirement in the AD was to open and examine the oil filter. One would have thought that filter examination and suction screen cleaning would be a normal part of an oil change.

Clarence

[fantom]

Byron....that's gotta be a joke, or a unique way to increase your useful load.

How is your engine doing??

AOA sells ten prepaid oil test kits for $100 or less. At SunNFun several years ago the ten pack was $88.

When you do them yourself, oil filter cutting and inspections are FREE

[Bob_Belville]

Blackstone kit is free but $25 when you send them in, plus postage. Don't know if there's a bulk or discount price. 

[PTK]

It's important to remember what oil analysis can and cannot do for us and what events inside the engine it can predict.

The spectrometer only sees microscopic non-visible metal particles that are deposited into the oil from wear. This is why they're called wear metals. That's all it can do. Nothing more and nothing less. By looking at regular oil analyses a trend can be constructed that gives us one aspect of the metal making tendencies of the engine over time. One isolated oil analysis here or there is not that useful. Its value is in the trends it provides. An upward trend of wear is a good predictor that metal will start showing up in the filter. This is why we cut and examine the filter along with oil analysis. Oil analysis cannot be expected to predict events inside the engine that occur too rapidly. Sudden mechanical failure of a component may not be seen by the spectrometer depending on how rapidly it happens.

Here's an excellnt article:

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/185087-1.html?redirected=1

[mike_elliott]

Sort of on topic here but you know what bugs me?

I went to an MSC recently to have something checked and while there I had the oil changed. Evidently they had no plans on removing and cleaning the screen so I inquired. Their excuse was it's difficult to get to! Granted the filter was very clean and there was no real reason to remove screen but that kind of answer bugs me? I wouldn't expect it from a MSC. (Same one who wanted 1700$ for hoses, parts only!)

I watched Maxwells guys r&r the suction screen on my F in about 15 minutes. I did it previously and it took me nearly an hour to re safety tie it. Experience makes it no so bad.

[Jim Peace]

Sort of on topic here but you know what bugs me?

I went to an MSC recently to have something checked and while there I had the oil changed. Evidently they had no plans on removing and cleaning the screen so I inquired. Their excuse was it's difficult to get to! Granted the filter was very clean and there was no real reason to remove screen but that kind of answer bugs me? I wouldn't expect it from a MSC. (Same one who wanted 1700$ for hoses, parts only!)

Hmmmm.....that really surprises me.....

[RobertGary1]

Hmmmm.....that really surprises me.....

 

Honestly, it really is a pain to get to. I'm not aware of anyone who pulls it regularly. Usually you pull it if you find things in the filter.

 

-Robert

[Guest]

Clarence,

I get mine done here in Edmonton by ALS Labratory Group they have a lab in Burlington, I can PM a copy of my last one if you like.

 

Eldon

 

Burlington, Ontario

 

 

csr.burlington@alstribology.com

 

 

877-732-9559

Eldon,

After digging in to this some more, they have told us that their Burlington lab is not the one to be doing aviation oil. Their lab in Arizona has the people and equipment for aviation.

We've decided to switch to Blackstone, a bit of a pain having to send samples to the states.

Clarence

[PTK]

Honestly, it really is a pain to get to. I'm not aware of anyone who pulls it regularly. Usually you pull it if you find things in the filter.

-Robert

I'm not so sure I agree!

The screen is there to protect the pump by catching bigger fragments of metal. These may not necessarily make it to the filter. With that in mind our Lycomings are well designed to easily remove and check/clean the screen.

I like to take advantage of this purposeful design and check the screen in addition to cutting the filter.

[WardHolbrook]

Oil analysis every oil change, an engine analyser and trend analysis. Understand what they are and are not telling you. You've only got one engine and you depend upon it so it's just CHEAP insurance.

[Bob_Belville]

ISTM these engines originally did not have the spin-on paper filter, only the screen. Doesn't the addition of the filter make checking the screen @ every oil change unnecessary in the view of most A&Ps?

[PTK]

Oil analysis every oil change, an engine analyser and trend analysis. Understand what they are and are not telling you. You've only got one engine and you depend upon it so it's just CHEAP insurance.

Totally agree. It follows then that the cheapest insurance is cutting the oil filter and checking the screen at every oil change!

ISTM these engines originally did not have the spin-on paper filter, only the screen. Doesn't the addition of the filter make checking the screen @ every oil change unnecessary in the view of most A&Ps?

The view of the A&P doesn't matter here as this is not up for discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Screen needs to be removed and checked.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/13535-oil-analysis/?p=178453

[WardHolbrook]

Years ago I flew a Cessna 421 for a construction company that had a large fleet of heavy earth-moving equipment and semi-trucks. We used the same company that provided the oil analysis for the heavy equipment to do the analysis on the GTSIO-520 engines on the C-421. The information they provided was identical, but the cost was MUCH less. It might pay you guys to make some inquiries. Who knows what you'll find. Sometimes, it pays to think outside the box. Believe it or not, some companies have been known to jack up the prices just because something happens to be aircraft related. 

[WardHolbrook]

Totally agree. It follows then that the cheapest insurance is cutting the oil filter and checking the screen at every oil change!

 

Why would anyone even question this???

[Guest]

ISTM these engines originally did not have the spin-on paper filter, only the screen. Doesn't the addition of the filter make checking the screen @ every oil change unnecessary in the view of most A&Ps?

Bob,

A healthy engine may not need the suction screen done every time, it depends on the oil change frequency. If you're doing oil every 25 hours, I would skip and do it at 50 hours(the original interval). At very least it should be done during the annual regardless of hours.

In my 30 years in maintenance I have seen more than one of the suction screens almost fully blocked with debris. One was so clogged when it came to me the owner was suffering low oil pressure because the pump could not draw oil from the sump. I've seen many engines with hundreds of hours since overhaul with the safety wire and gasket still painted gray.

Clarence

[PTK]

Why would anyone even question this???

Laziness.

In my view an A&P objecting to this is committing negligence. They get away with it because owners/pilots go along with their excuses.

Years ago I flew a Cessna 421 for a construction company that had a large fleet of heavy earth-moving equipment and semi-trucks. We used the same company that provided the oil analysis for the heavy equipment to do the analysis on the GTSIO-520 engines on the C-421. The information they provided was identical, but the cost was MUCH less. It might pay you guys to make some inquiries. Who knows what you'll find. Sometimes, it pays to think outside the box. Believe it or not, some companies have been known to jack up the prices just because something happens to be aircraft related.

I've been using Petroleum Products Monitoring in Athens, GA for several years.

Standard oil analysis is $8.00 plus an additional $2.00 if you request a TAN.

They never had to call me but they call immediately if they find a problem.

Their reports are very detailed and contain historical trends. They mail it and of course email it also.

[fantom]

Why would anyone even question this???

Because the nameless CB who brought this subject up, and many others, would squeal like stuffed pigs and the added costs for the work.

[Bob_Belville]

I would like to know of any first hand experience of metal being found on a screen where the filter was clean.

 

As I suspect we all should know, the (required) 100 hour/annuals inspections, even at the best shops, have been known to be dangerous. Anytime we r/r something there is the real possiblilty that we will do harm. E.g., I had my plane at the avionics shop this week forXponder/Altimeter/Static System certification. The Xponder, new 2 years ago, which had never failed in any way, was invisible to ATC after being tested.