M20J Service Ceiling

[Mooney_Allegro]

I'm trying to find the service ceiling of my 1998 M20J, and can't seem to find it in the POH.  I would expect to find it under Limitations, but I can't find anything about the Service Ceiling there.  The only guidance I can find is in the performance charts, where 14,000 is the highest altitude I can find.  Is there somewhere I can find the Service Ceiling published in the POH?  I must be blind. 

Thanks!

[Gone]

David:

Don't have a J and don't have access to the J POH, but this link may help:

http://www.pilotfriend.com/aircraft performance/Mooney/47.htm.  18,800'

BTW:  Same service ceiling as my E model.

 

 

[Mooney_Allegro]

Thanks Edgargravel!  I hope my service ceiling is 18,800', but I've not taken it above 14,000', because my charts don't go any higher and I don't know what the service ceiling is.  I do have a portable oxygen tank just incase, but the real question is where do I find the number in my POH.  I'm sure it's hidden in there someplace. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

The reason it's not in the Operating Limitations section is because it's not an Operating Limitation .

You're legal to go higher.  Most likely, in your case, up to as high as your Altimeter can go (I'm guessing yours is calibrated to 20,000').

18,800 is the correct answer on my 1990 M20J-AT, and i don't think the MSE went any higher, either.

I've had it at 14,000 fully loaded, except for departure fuel missing, no problem.

[RJBrown]

 Service ceiling is the altitude where you can no longer maintain a 100' climb for a normally aspirated Mooney. My 1990 MSE is 18800'. That number is really meaningless from an operational standpoint. 16500 is about as high as I feel comfortable climbing. The service ceiling on the M20Ks is 24,000'. That is a certified ceiling. For part 91 flying it is not a limit. Rocket investigated raising the certified ceiling of their conversions to 31,000'. They did a lot of testing at that altitude and the plane did fine. For cost reasons they did not "certify" the plane to 31,000". The only advantage would be to allow air taxi operations above 24,000'. Kind of pointless really.

[FlyingAggie]

Just to clarify RJ's statement:

The M20K/231 is certfied to 24,000'

The M20K/252 is certified to 28,000'

Now my question is what is the certified ceiling of my 1982 M20K with the Trophy 262 conversion?  24K or 28K?

Quote: RJBrown

 The service ceiling on the M20Ks is 24,000'. That is a certified ceiling.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: FlyingAggie

[FlyingAggie]

Parker,

I have the TSIO360-MB, the same engine as in the 252.  The Trophy 262 Conversion POH supplement doesn't list the certified ceiling.  Do they the certify the airframe or the engine at the certified ceiling?

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

 

Does your engine have a limitation?  Which engine is in yours?  MB or LB?  Do either of those engines have operating limitations?

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: FlyingAggie

 

[Jeff_S]

I had in the back of my head that the service ceiling for a J was bout 18,000 feet. But in Jerry Manthey's class last weekend he was telling a story where he had his J up to 19,500 one day out West, trying to get above and dodge some storms. And he said he thought it could have gone higher. So the plane likely can do more than the certification shows.

[Hank]

The POH for my C-model shows 230 fpm at 18,000 at a load approx. equal to 2 people, full fuel and some supplies. At that same load, I've been to 15,000 but OAT was 59ºF vs. standard temp of about 8ºF; if I did the math correctly, 15,000 indicated that day was 18,750 DA. Climb was somewhat anemic [100-200 fpm], peak EGT was easy to find [power dropped off sharply], and the plane manuevered crisply [quite a surprise!]. Climbing was done in a continuous right circle, with a CFII/A&P in the right seat. He seemed pleased with the engine performance and climb rate, and yes, we leaned in the climb. No LOP, though, even after leveling off. [it's a C, with a carb.]

I would expect your J to climb better, with more power available and better fuel distribution. Just don't be in a hurry, and remember to calculate DA and not rely just on your altimeter, especially this time of year. The higher you go, the greater the difference can become.

I tried to keep the climb speed near POH numbers, but (100 mph indicated) - (Altitude in thousands) only applies to 10,000', then it continues to drop down to just 80 mph indicated. And yes, 2% per 1000' loss of indicated airspeed makes 80 IAS = 104 TAS, but it sure does FEEL slow!

[Piloto]

Quote: Jeff_S

I had in the back of my head that the service ceiling for a J was bout 18,000 feet. But in Jerry Manthey's class last weekend he was telling a story where he had his J up to 19,500 one day out West, trying to get above and dodge some storms. And he said he thought it could have gone higher. So the plane likely can do more than the certification shows.

[RJBrown]

[Piloto]

Anything above FL250 without pressurization is not worth it. The oxygen consumption is to high and unlike the cannulas the mask becomes unconfortable after several hours.

José

 

[Mooney_Allegro]

I wonder why the performance charts for my M20J do not show anything above 14,000?  If the plane can go higher, you would think there would be performance listed for the higher altitudes.  I'm glad it will go higher than 14,000, as I would like to take the Mooney MAPA Mountain Course next year, and I think they fly into Leadville, CO.  I'm not sure of the altitude for that airport, but I think it's above 14,000'. 

[Jeff_S]

Leadville altitude is definitely not above 14,000.  It's an easy check on Airnav, but since I'm lazy I'll say it's around 9000' somewhere as it's in the valley between the Sawatch and Mosquito mountain ranges. God's country, no doubt about it. Wish I still lived there.

And a J should have no trouble there. My buddy did a clinic up to Leadville in a puny little 1964 Cessna 172. Granted, he had half tanks and they flew in and out before 9am to take advantage of the cooler temps. 

[piperpainter]

I had my C model on a nice cold day up to 18,400. I was by myself and at the time lightly loaded. But I've also taken off with full fuel and bags plus me equal to 2 folks and she climbed up to 17200 with no problems in a circle. I love her performance!

[FlyingAggie]

No need to wait till next year.  The Colorado Pilot Association (CPA) offers their certified Mountain Flying Course twice every summer.  The next session is  Aug 7th.  Saturday is an all day ground school and Sunday is an optional Mountain cross-country with a CPA certified mountain flying instructor.  Several of the instructors have extensive Mooney experience.  In fact one is a former MAPA Safety Foundation Instructor.

The typical cross-country route is Denver (5280') to Kremmling (7411') to Glenwood Springs (5916') to Aspen (7820') to Leadville (9927') then back to Denver.  At some point in your flight you may have to deal with a simulated emergency.  The actual route will depend on you, your plane and your instructor.

Details at http://coloradopilots.org/mtnfly_class.asp?menuID=42~42

Quote: Mooney_Allegro

I'm glad it will go higher than 14,000, as I would like to take the Mooney MAPA Mountain Course next year, and I think they fly into Leadville, CO.  I'm not sure of the altitude for that airport, but I think it's above 14,000'. 

[David_S]

Just as another point of reference, I've been up to FL180 (Europe) a couple of times, but not without incident. The last time I went up that high, I did have an encounter with fuel icing. It was probably an unusual flight for two reasons - firstly it was from Alta up in the Norwegian Arctic Circle down to Helsinki in Finland, so the ambient temperature was pretty cold - about -20C all the way. Secondly, we were avoiding poor weather and were at that level for about four hours before we had any problem.

The symptoms of the encounter were that the fuel flow simply dropped to almost zero and the engine power just disappeared. Fortunately from that height you can glide for miles, so we could have easily reached an airport. Turning on the fuel pump made no difference, but shortly after passing through the freezing level at 10,000' or so, everything returned to normal. We landed and ran tests, but everything seemed fine and I haven't had a similar problem in the 300 or so hours since in that aircraft.

Reading up about it afterwards, this does seem to be quite rare. The turbocharged Mooneys go up to those levels and temperatures regularly without a problem. The only other occurrence I found had similar factors - it was an M20J, in the cold Canadian North, with prolonged exposure. The conclusion I came to was that the icing was probably small water crystals building up in the fuel pipes, which took a while to block them. The reason you might see them in the M20Js but not the Ks is that, being normally aspirated they're producing very little power - and thus excess heat - up at those levels. The fuel pipes above the engine are quite fine bore and exposed to the full blast of the icy airflow, so possibly the most likely place to encounter the problem.

[Piloto]

Quote: David_S

Just as another point of reference, I've been up to FL180 (Europe) a couple of times, but not without incident. The last time I went up that high, I did have an encounter with fuel icing. It was probably an unusual flight for two reasons - firstly it was from Alta up in the Norwegian Arctic Circle down to Helsinki in Finland, so the ambient temperature was pretty cold - about -20C all the way. Secondly, we were avoiding poor weather and were at that level for about four hours before we had any problem.

The symptoms of the encounter were that the fuel flow simply dropped to almost zero and the engine power just disappeared. Fortunately from that height you can glide for miles, so we could have easily reached an airport. Turning on the fuel pump made no difference, but shortly after passing through the freezing level at 10,000' or so, everything returned to normal. We landed and ran tests, but everything seemed fine and I haven't had a similar problem in the 300 or so hours since in that aircraft.

Reading up about it afterwards, this does seem to be quite rare. The turbocharged Mooneys go up to those levels and temperatures regularly without a problem. The only other occurrence I found had similar factors - it was an M20J, in the cold Canadian North, with prolonged exposure. The conclusion I came to was that the icing was probably small water crystals building up in the fuel pipes, which took a while to block them. The reason you might see them in the M20Js but not the Ks is that, being normally aspirated they're producing very little power - and thus excess heat - up at those levels. The fuel pipes above the engine are quite fine bore and exposed to the full blast of the icy airflow, so possibly the most likely place to encounter the problem.

[tablor]

While this article is in relation to an M20E (not modern), I still thought it was well written and interesting.  I had found this probably years ago and I'm just noticing today that it's written by the same guy that did the coast to coast flight recently.  Anyhow, it's relevant to where this thread has gone, but not where it started so I hope you don't mind:
http://razzolink.com/~jonathan/FL230.doc'>http://razzolink.com/~jonathan/FL230.doc

You can find his home page at:
http://razzolink.com/~jonathan/
He's really got a lot of good info that's all well written.  Check it out when you're bored one evening.