High altitude landings and take offs

[Oscar Avalle]

I flew  to Quetzaltenango (MGQZ, although not yet in the Jepp database!). The airport is at about 8k feet MSL. Temperature was above standard and the density altitude was about 10k.

I was flying my Mooney M20C.

 

Three issues that came to my attention:

a. Barometer setting: The setting at my homefield was 30.30, MGQZ did not report a setting, but after adjusting the altimeter to field altitude the barometer read 30.63! No wonder that I came in high…

 

b. groundspeed vs. indicated airspeed. My indicated airspeed during the flair was 80 mph, my groundspeed 100 mph!! (wind was calm) So you have to factor in a longer ground run.

 

c. Take off: I leaned the engine to max power and take off flaps. Even so, output did only reach 65%. So not much power! Also your groundspeed was about 15 mph higher than at MSL. I was concerned… but at the end I just used 30% of the LONG RUNWAY (8000 feet long)….  and then I nudged the airplane up to 12.5 k to return to my home field.

 

Overall interesting experience...

[thinwing]

Hi Oscar...interesting flight...as you noted at that altitude ground speed is quite higher than indicated but you still fly your approaches at same indicated as sea level....at a density altitude of 10k the highest manifold pressure you could pull would be 22.5 in or about 60% as you state.You did not mention staying in ground effect after lift off to let airspeed increase before climbout...Out west ,airports like Tahoe and evansville wyoming when hot and heavy poise challenges trying to outclimb terrain.My turbo has made all the difference in these cases..regards kpc

[Joe Zuffoletto]

The name of that place is almost as long as the runway.

[chrisk]

Even with a turbo, my plane uses more runway and the ground run is faster at high altitude airports.  But at least it produces 100% power and climbs ok, but still not like sea level.  At 60% horsepower, I imagine you had a very slow rate of climb.

[FlyDave]

I departed South Lake Tahoe (KTVL) about a month ago late on a warm afternoon. A guy in an A36 Bonanza loaded his 2 daughters, a couple of dogs and a bunch of bags. I taxied out before him and while I was doing my run-up he taxied past me to the hold bars (told me on the radio that he did his run-up in tiedown area), announced his intentions and started his roll, and kept rolling, and kept rolling......

KTVL has an 8,000' runway and I swear he used 5,000' of it. Watching him I found myself saying "wait until she flies.....rotate....rotate..". He finally got off with a slow climb out over the lake.

I guess he knew his airplane - at least I hope he did with his little girls in the back!

[Oscar Avalle]

Even with a turbo, my plane uses more runway and the ground run is faster at high altitude airports. But at least it produces 100% power and climbs ok, but still not like sea level. At 60% horsepower, I imagine you had a very slow rate of climb.

[marks]

So you flew to Guatemala?!  Without google maps I would have had no idea.  Good going Oscar!

[Hank]

I believe Oscar lives in Guatemala . . . Maybe sometime he will tell us about getting his Mooney down there. Memory says that he has flown it back at least once, too. We need a trip report!

[marks]

Agreed!  We should get a trip report.  I'd be fearful about 100LL availability just getting there.

[Oscar Avalle]

I believe Oscar lives in Guatemala . . . Maybe sometime he will tell us about getting his Mooney down there. Memory says that he has flown it back at least once, too. We need a trip report!

 

I would love to give you guys a trip report. I will put something together. The route was: 9D4 (Deck PA) Jacksonville FL, Key West FL and then non stop Guatemala City (flying over the Caribbean, Cozumel and the down to MGGT). I did add a ferry tank (21 gallons) as a precaution.... but I could have done without it. 

 

Paperwork and red tape was not too complicated (I did not stop in Mexico) and the weather was simply marvelous! that is the summary....

[David Mazer]

I've flown an M20F here in FL in the middle of summer and was barely climbing 500 fpm at 7,000.  I've also taken off in the middle of summer from LMO in Colorado, 5000ft, and climbed at 1000 fpm in my Rocket.  The turbo, as well as the extra 105 hp, makes a huge difference.

[kortopates]

I've flown down to Guatemala through Mexico and its not a problem. Obviously from the east coast, Oscar's route was the most direct route and fastest way there but did involve a lot of over water with lack of landing options. Flying through Mexico gives you lots of options along the way without a concern for long legs and less expensive fuel is readily available virtually everywhere. Being on the west coast, we entered from Southern California (MYF) and flew down to MGGT via Ciudad Obregón MMCD (3:25)  where we cleared, then flew on toi Puerto Valarta MMPR (2:38) where we spent the night, the following morning we picked a more inland route to avoid coastal rain and flew to beautiful Oaxaca MMOX (3:11) flying around the weather to Guadalajara before heading back on course. At Oaxaca  we did the exit paper work and flew the relatively short leg to La Aurora MGGT (2:28), arriving well before dark. So basically a couple 3+ hr legs,  and a couple of  ~2.5 hr legs. If you're able to enter from southern Texas, you'd have a shorter flight time to get down, perhaps entering MX at Monterrey MMMY,  but certainly not in one leg as Oscar could do via the Caribbean. All of our legs were on IFR flight plans at 17K.

 

We didn't spend any time sight seeing going south, with just one night enroute since we  had already been to each of those destinations previously and just wanted to start our touring in Guatemala. But on the way back we took much more time to enable visiting some places we hadn't yet been too. 

 

The flight planning is not complicated but unlike Mexico though, you do have to apply for permission to fly into Guatemala in advance (like the majority of Central American countries). It used to be a pain to fax their form, but it has gotten much easier these days through the web. MGGT though is a very friendly airport and even has a FAA certified repair station on the field where we were able to refill our O2 tank for the return trip north. Probably the most challenging is aspect to the flight planning is just learning how you'll get access to weather and if you're new to it, the regulations you'll need to know for each country you visit (mainly entry/exit requirements).

 

Mexico is still is very easy with fuel that is generally cheaper than in the US. But Central America has gotten less and less friendly towards GA travel. For example, Nicaragua is down to one international airport (where you must enter and exit) and for quite some time had no av fuel, but now reports indicate it's available for $12+/gal, and Costa Rica has gone to ridiculous parking rates for GA charging over a couple hundred dollars for 24hr day for transient ramp parking. We had plans to spend a couple weeks down there and worked really hard to find reasonable alternatives at FBO's and national airports with very limited success. Guatemala remains quite friendly as does Panama, but sadly that's not the case throughout CENAM.  That said, I wouldn't discourage anyone for making the best of it. Just the opposite, I encourage everyone that enjoys a little adventure to travel internationally with our birds. But it really doesn't get any easier than Mexico (or Canada). 

[rockydoc]

I've been flying in and out of Mexico and Central America since 1991.  No current VFR charts are available, but both high and low IFR are.  I had a United captain friend who gave me some old (1982) VFR charts he had iin his files for these area..  I laminated them.  They are quite helpful.  Also Carribeanskytours.com if a VERY valuable resource for charts, airport information, non-aviation government topographic charts, etc., etc.  The owner is extremely friendly and wanting to be of assistance in any way he can.  Also, document requirements are quite specific, but AOPA is an excellent resource to ACCURATELY determine what documentation is needed.  High grade 100LL is not an issue in Mexico, but further South, it is.  Mechanics are another issue, however, you can get two day delivery from Aircraft Sprice via UPS International which is best because of UPS's way of cleaning customs for your parts.

Guess that pretty much covers it.  Safe flying.

Rocky

[ArtVandelay]

Check out skyvector.com   seems to have the world VFR charts, then print whatever you need.

[Hector]

I would love to give you guys a trip report. I will put something together. The route was: 9D4 (Deck PA) Jacksonville FL, Key West FL and then non stop Guatemala City (flying over the Caribbean, Cozumel and the down to MGGT). I did add a ferry tank (21 gallons) as a precaution.... but I could have done without it.

Paperwork and red tape was not too complicated (I did not stop in Mexico) and the weather was simply marvelous! that is the summary....

Oscar, if your travels take you through Jacksonville again let me know. I'm based out of KCRG. Would love to meet you. We have 5 Mooney's on the field (M20B, M20C, M20E, M20J, and a MSE). Three of us are parked on the same row of T-hangars and are always glad to meet other Mooney drivers.

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[Oscar Avalle]

Will keep it in mind! I would love to meet you too